Cameron doesn't care about the UK manufacturing industry
- Thread starter KNiVES
- Start date
interesting link that the Siemens contract is also going to build them here and create 2000 jobs lol
So really the story is
"German company chosen over Canadian company to build new trains. Bombadier axes 1200 jobs, but Siemens will create 2000 and will probably end up employing lots of the laid off workers"
So really the story is
"German company chosen over Canadian company to build new trains. Bombadier axes 1200 jobs, but Siemens will create 2000 and will probably end up employing lots of the laid off workers"
[TW]Fox;19521517 said:
Err well no, because Bombardier are still reviewing their UK rail operations and tbh I wouldn't blame them if they decided to close the Derby factory down. The total estimated job losses in Derby as a result of the Thameslink contract going to Siemens is 6000, because suppliers are affected (one of which I heard has announced it is relocating to Germany) and even some the shops selling sandwiches around the factory will lose business.
[TW]Fox;19521517 said:
Remember when David Cameron said the UK economy need "rebalancing" away from services, towards manufacturing. Well most of the 2000 jobs Siemens are creating, are service jobs - topping up the oil on the trains instead of building the parts that need the oil.
Soldato
- Joined
- 28 Nov 2008
- Posts
- 8,725
- Location
- UK
It's Canadian...
Soldato
- Joined
- 13 May 2003
- Posts
- 9,172
[TW]Fox thanks for pointing out some of the truth that the BBC and it's ilk aren't reporting in their headlines. The Thameslink job isn't the reason for this announcement its just timed so it seems like it. Post hoc ergo propter hoc. Also if we write "fair" contract specifications we have to honour those agreements, the mistake was in the tender process not the decision.
Would everyone feel better if we broke the contract were sued by Siemens for millions and then spent 4 years re-tendering?
The general sentiment that where the UK makes a comparable product we should favour UK products for public spending is not unreasonable but we need to plan it in at the start not cry over lies after the fact.
Would everyone feel better if we broke the contract were sued by Siemens for millions and then spent 4 years re-tendering?
The general sentiment that where the UK makes a comparable product we should favour UK products for public spending is not unreasonable but we need to plan it in at the start not cry over lies after the fact.
Associate
- Joined
- 30 Dec 2005
- Posts
- 902
- Location
- Calgary
How about the Derby plant puts forward a good enough bid for trains to be bought by the Germans or another country? Why do they have to rely on government contracts?
And I'm glad Fox has pointed out the inaccuracy of the reporting - the BBC radio stations have unsurprisingly been misleading with the facts all day.
And I'm glad Fox has pointed out the inaccuracy of the reporting - the BBC radio stations have unsurprisingly been misleading with the facts all day.
the point is that in the current economic climate it is absolute madness to send money we borrow outside the uk.
in fact, I don't think we can afford the trains anyway.
It sends completely the wrong message though, back britain, buy british but not trains... hmm
This country needs the government to give long term backing to large scale engineering companies, we also need to tie them in some how so they stay for the long term.
TBH this decision just shows how utterly stupid the tories are with their ridiculous inflexible right wing mantra. The free market has served it's purpose and been allowed to evolve too far, we will never build a sustainable recovery with out investing in ourselves.
in fact, I don't think we can afford the trains anyway.
It sends completely the wrong message though, back britain, buy british but not trains... hmm
This country needs the government to give long term backing to large scale engineering companies, we also need to tie them in some how so they stay for the long term.
TBH this decision just shows how utterly stupid the tories are with their ridiculous inflexible right wing mantra. The free market has served it's purpose and been allowed to evolve too far, we will never build a sustainable recovery with out investing in ourselves.
[TW]Fox;19521517 said:
nice try, but the real implication is that there will be another 1200 job losses.
The trains are going to be manufactured in Germany whereas they would have been manufactured and probably designed in the UK. The UK would have gained a lot of engineering knowledge through this contract, we will now lose it all.[TW]Fox;19521517 said:
The '2000' jobs which are 'created' probably would have to be filled no matter who got the contract.
The problem is the pathetic lack of technical understanding in this country. There is a lot more to wealth than a few quick bucks, the Germans know this and think we are mad.
Because the Germans wouldn't buy non-German trains, just like the French don't buy non-French trains and the Japanese don't buy non-Japanese trains. All perfectly legal of course.
And how exactly has Fox pointed out the inaccuracy of the BBC reporting? By linking to the BBC report. Brilliant.
Associate
- Joined
- 30 Dec 2005
- Posts
- 902
- Location
- Calgary
This kind of attitude ruined British manufacturing in the first place though. It may help companies in the short term - but it will destroy them in the long term. If we give them the contract now, in 25 years time when we have to renew these trains, we'll be having the same discussion, only the foreign trains will be even better and the British built ones even worse.
I'm not sure why the government even has a say here anyway? They should get their grubby, meddling paws off the decision. Network Rail, whichever private companies will be running the line and TfL are the only bodies who should be involved.
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Jul 2009
- Posts
- 16,234
- Location
- Newcastle/Aberdeen
But they shouldn't be involved at all when you consider that the train industry was best for the manufacturing industry when it was public.
because it is not a 'free' market, for years the Germans have been making it difficult for exporters by applying multiple small rules that handicap the foreign product. While at the same time heavily subsidising the long term research and develpement required through numerous funded technical research programs.
so if we follow this brilliant reasoning, what exactly do we end up doing in this country?
well this policy has slowly but surely destroyed british industry, the lame ducks have died to be replaced by... err imports and financial services (which just lend money to buy imports)
The 'foreigners' know that you have to invest long term, the market will only invest short term.
What killed British industry was underinvestment, under-valuing of engineering as a profession and failure to keep up with modern management techniques. If you think protectionism always fails, I suggest you look up the history of Rolls-Royce as a case study.
One thing's for sure, there ain't going to be any British built trains in future so the choice you'll get your wish - the end of British manufacturing. Once we lose this capability it's difficult to envisage how we might get it back.
The taxpayer is paying because private companies aren't interested in making an investment of that size. Like it or not, but rail investments in the developed world are so expensive that if it were simply left to the free market there would be no investment. Deutsche Bahn, the privately owned German rail monopoly, is subsidised to the tune of €10bn a year for new investment and infrastructure upgrades.
Associate
- Joined
- 30 Dec 2005
- Posts
- 902
- Location
- Calgary
We still produce a lot of stuff, more than most people realise or accept, the devaluation of the pound should help manufacturing as well.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
Hardly, it would have been pretty much an off the shelf Bombardier product.
Associate
- Joined
- 30 Dec 2005
- Posts
- 902
- Location
- Calgary
I agree about the under-valuing of engineering, this hasn't been helped in recent years by the push to get everyone university educated.
What I wish is for British factories to produce competitive products.
Private companies aren't allowed to make long term investment in the railways at present due to the franchise set up.
Don't forget who built almost the entire railway system and ran it in its 'golden age'.
compare our balance of payments with Germany and Japan, we don't produce enough.
[TW]Fox;19522109 said:
I'm afraid I am not privy to the details, however under the terms of the contract it would have been possible to gain some i.p. In fact why do you think foreign companies tend to buy british firms in the first place.