They should investigate the homicide thoroughly, they don't need to arrest the householder to that. Arrest him when there's reasonable grounds to suspect he used unreasonable force, not to find out if unreasonable force was used.
Suspected burglar stabbed to death by homeowner
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
They should investigate the homicide thoroughly, they don't need to arrest the householder to that. Arrest him when there's reasonable grounds to suspect he used unreasonable force, not to find out if unreasonable force was used.
Arresting them lets them hold the potential suspect (and you don't get much more suspicious than "I killed him" whilst holding a bloody knife).
Otherwise he can simply refuse to co-operate.
Also arresting him gives him immediate access to legal assistance free of charge, and means that everything that is being said gets properly recorded which avoids issues later on....
At the time they had zero clue about what had really gone on, that's the bit you cannot seem to understand, they cannot take anyone's word for it when there is a body on the ground.
If he's questioned while not under caution, the result is evidence that cannot be used, as well as a diminishment of the rights of the individual...
If you're going to try to get information from the person who killed the other, it has to be following arrest and caution...
If he doesn't co-operate, that's reasonable grounds for suspicion init?
Not the "being arrested is a good thing" argument again /yawn. He shouldn't need legal assistance, he didn't do anything wrong. He was a witness, witnesses give properly recorded statements that can be referred to in court.
Oh right so they didn't know anything, so lets presume the householder is guilty and arrest him just in case. Brilliant logic. As I keep suggesting, maybe the police should have a clue about what had happened until they arrest someone on suspicion of committing murder. If the householder acts suspiciously e.g. is uncooperative, or is interfering with the crime scene then yeah arrest him. The police could even say "sorry, your home is a crime scene now, so you'll have to find somewhere else to stay for the next few days - let us know where to find you yeah?". Before the old "he's sure to do a runner" counter-arguments start, let me point out that this is how it works for other murders when the police don't have reasonable grounds to arrest a suspect.
Which innocent people? Are you suggesting that he's going to struggle because he was arrested as part of an investigation into a crime? Judging by people's reactions in these parts, any, say, interviewer who finds out he killed a man in self defence is more likely to crawl under the desk and give him a blow job than send him packing.
Unfortunately it´s not only in England that someone who defend their property and in the act kills the burglar/ bandit became the "bad" instead of been a victim...
in Brasil a guy who has robbed several times before by the same burglar,and is despair , "invented" a system with two steel tubes with 12 gauge shells inside ,some steel wire and two mouse traps- all conected to the front door
when the burglar open the front door of the house- KABOMMM- the robber is dead in the spot
and know the poor homeowner could face 30 years in jail because he have defend his home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GSLpQonWaA&feature=player_embedded
in Brasil a guy who has robbed several times before by the same burglar,and is despair , "invented" a system with two steel tubes with 12 gauge shells inside ,some steel wire and two mouse traps- all conected to the front door
when the burglar open the front door of the house- KABOMMM- the robber is dead in the spot
and know the poor homeowner could face 30 years in jail because he have defend his home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GSLpQonWaA&feature=player_embedded
Unfortunately it´s not only in England that someone who defend their property and in the act kills the burglar/ bandit became the "bad" instead of been a victim...
in Brasil a guy who has robbed several times before by the same burglar,and is despair , "invented" a system with two steel tubes with 12 gauge shells inside ,some steel wire and two mouse traps- all conected to the front door
when the burglar open the front door of the house- KABOMMM- the robber is dead in the spot
and know the poor homeowner could face 30 years in jail because he have defend his home
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GSLpQonWaA&feature=player_embedded
You're mental if you think that sort of thing is acceptable. Utterly batpoop bonkers.
Someone was stabbed to death.
Or are you trying to tell the ladies and gentlemen in this thread that simply telling the police the dead man broke in to your house is enough for them to ignore any possibility of foul play?
Man of Honour
- Joined
- 1 Aug 2004
- Posts
- 12,681
- Location
- Tyneside
FFS Scorza, you appear clueless when it comes to evidence and procedure. No offence bud.
This guy. He's going to have to answer "yes" to those "have you ever been arrested" questions, which would adversely affect him in the future even though he's done nothing wrong.
Soldato
- Joined
- 4 Nov 2002
- Posts
- 2,982
- Location
- England - Leeds
Surely if you find someone in your house and they have a knife or some kind of weapon you should be able to do anything you can to defend yourself.
But at same time if you see some chav in your house, you'd probably be in shock for first 2 seconds but then you'd just ask them to leave, if they do then you do nothing, if they come at you, then you act.
I think most of all, if someone was in my bedroom, thats the worst of all...you wake up in middle of night and someone in your room...thats completly different to someone coming through kitchen through day when your in living room, or robbing you when you're out and you walk in on them in your house with plasma tv in their hands.
The police probably do take everything into consideration though.
It also depends on what age the robber is and what their intentions are, they might attack you or they might flee depending on the type of mentality they have.
But at same time if you see some chav in your house, you'd probably be in shock for first 2 seconds but then you'd just ask them to leave, if they do then you do nothing, if they come at you, then you act.
I think most of all, if someone was in my bedroom, thats the worst of all...you wake up in middle of night and someone in your room...thats completly different to someone coming through kitchen through day when your in living room, or robbing you when you're out and you walk in on them in your house with plasma tv in their hands.
The police probably do take everything into consideration though.
It also depends on what age the robber is and what their intentions are, they might attack you or they might flee depending on the type of mentality they have.
skscotchegg, that's the point you can use any level of force to defend yourself.
What Scorza seems to completely misunderstand/not comprehend, is that the Police have to carry out a full investigation when there is a body, and can't just take someone's word for it (otherwise I can think of several people who I wouldn't mind having to kill in "self defence"
, I might need a few minutes to put the cups in the dishwasher, and tidy up the biscuits before calling the police though).
What Scorza seems to completely misunderstand/not comprehend, is that the Police have to carry out a full investigation when there is a body, and can't just take someone's word for it (otherwise I can think of several people who I wouldn't mind having to kill in "self defence"
, I might need a few minutes to put the cups in the dishwasher, and tidy up the biscuits before calling the police though).
Soldato
- Joined
- 4 Nov 2002
- Posts
- 2,982
- Location
- England - Leeds
skscotchegg, that's the point you can use any level of force to defend yourself.
What Scorza seems to completely misunderstand/not comprehend, is that the Police have to carry out a full investigation when there is a body, and can't just take someone's word for it (otherwise I can think of several people who I wouldn't mind having to kill in "self defence"
Yeah I totally agree, they have to do an investigation otherwise there'd be loads of people murdering people and saying they were doing it in self defence, things would get out of control.
I think that's why its such a difficult situation for the goverment/police to put something down in writing, like a set of rules your allowed to do or not allowed to do...maybe they will always just go by each individual case and each persons circumstances.
I guess part of it is just common sense, just like if someone attacked you in the street, you'd defend yourself but there's no need to kill the person, or for them to kill you, thats just taking things too far.
I don't recall being asked whether I've ever been arrested, but I could be mistaken, given that I've not been arrested, so it's not relevant to me... I recall being asked whether I've been convicted of certain offences, but not whether I've ever been arrested.
There's a dead person and a person who killed them.
Looks like reasonable grounds to me.
If we switched to your standards, almost all kinds of assault (including murder) would happen much more often since it would be trivially easy to get away with them. Murder in particular, since there wouldn't be anyone to object to the claim of self-defence that every killer would use to avoid even being arrested.
It would be a kill-happy free for all.
What Scorza seems to completely misunderstand/not comprehend, is that the Police have to carry out a full investigation when there is a body, and can't just take someone's word for it (otherwise I can think of several people who I wouldn't mind having to kill in "self defence"
Absolute rubbish, what I cannot comprehend and what no-one has given a satisfactory answer to in 18 pages of nonsense is why the police had to arrest the householder? No, a dead body is not reasonable grounds - the police must have *evidence* that the householder acted unreasonably for an arrest and as we've heard there was no evidence to suggest that was the case.
Your argument that not arresting householders unless there's reasonable grounds for suspicion will lead to an epidemic of murderers inviting their victim round for tea is frankly laughable.
No offence, but so do the police - especially when it comes to News International
