Photographs used, no payment. where do i stand.

Xenoxide · 27 Jul 2011 at 12:35

Ejizz said:
^^^
Invoice showing terms was sent in email with links to pictures, they then used the pictures, this means they accepted the contract therefore there is an agreement to pay.

It's not as clear cut as this, for either party.

As you say, OP never signalled acceptance of the papers terms before sending images in.

Similarly, the paper never signalled acceptance of the invoice before using the images.

Normally I would agree, that usage of the images constituted an agreement, but the fact that the OP changed the proposed deal with no negotiation means that to me, the deal is questionable.

If I was the paper and proposed the terms to someone, and then that person sent the images, with no further negotiation, other than including an invoice (Which could be easilly overlooked given that it would have been an attachment rather than in the email body), I might have used the images also.

An Exception · 27 Jul 2011 at 12:49

Xenoxide said:
It's not as clear cut as this, for either party.

As you say, OP never signalled acceptance of the papers terms before sending images in.

Similarly, the paper never signalled acceptance of the invoice before using the images.

Normally I would agree, that usage of the images constituted an agreement, but the fact that the OP changed the proposed deal with no negotiation means that to me, the deal is questionable.

If I was the paper and proposed the terms to someone, and then that person sent the images, with no further negotiation, other than including an invoice (Which could be easilly overlooked given that it would have been an attachment rather than in the email body), I might have used the images also.

If that is the case, then it becomes 'battle of the forms' and the Op is in a very favourable position.

Derek W · 27 Jul 2011 at 13:19

neil_g said:
rofl. i just think that as a professional the OP should have nailed his demands to the mast before sending the images, sending the images without this is just going to cause confusion no matter what.

for the record we've dealt with national publications and found that getting confirmation before sending works. and thats working within the final hour(s) before deadline also.

when have i ever stated that i was a professional? :confused:

As for agreeing terms etc yes perhaps it should have been made absolutely clear but like i said before I've sent photos with the invoice to other papers and there's been no problem with them paying. I was just going by personal experience.

Rojin · 27 Jul 2011 at 18:14

I don't know the content of your invoice or email, but I've never seen an invoice on its own as contractually binding as it has always just been the request for payment following the provision of services based upon an initial quote/contract to carry out the work in the first place. The terms and conditions including costs are always agreed up front.

Derek W · 27 Jul 2011 at 18:29

well Ive had a look on the paper's website and I've seen the contacts that I need to email with my invoice again. The sports editor, the guy i was dealing with.....along with Photographer! yes they couldn't send him along to the match to cover it!, the Photographic Manager, the editor and possibly the group circulation manager as I've never received a copy of the said paper.

Hi Derek
Just confirming email details for Ayr Advertiser As I said would give you photo byline and send you paper if you give us address Would be great even to get half a dozen pics including celebrations (depending who wins) Kind Regards Stewart McConnell Sports Editor

Hi Stewart,

Please find below links to photographs from todays match between Brechin and Ayr. I have added captions for clarity although you can alter these if required.

http://derekwattphotography.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/Ayr/IMG_4244.JPG
Jonathon Tiffoney ventures forward looking for an opportunity to shoot.
http://derekwattphotography.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/Ayr/IMG_4346.JPG
Fans celebrate with Mark Roberts and his team mates after equalising.
http://derekwattphotography.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/Ayr/IMG_4369.JPG
Michael Moffat runs to the Ayr fans after scoring Ayr's second of the afternoon.
http://derekwattphotography.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/Ayr/IMG_4432.JPG
Fans invade the pitch after the full time whistle sounds to celebrate promotion to Division 1
http://derekwattphotography.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/Ayr/IMG_4442.JPG
Keeper Alan Martin is swamped by Ayr Fans
http://derekwattphotography.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/Ayr/IMG_4459.JPG
The team crack open the champagne with the fans in the background.

As discussed, a photo byline and copy of the paper would be appreciated. My details to send the paper to are included on the attached invoice and if you could forward that to the appropriate department within Clyde & Forth Press it would also be appreciated.

Regards

Derek

The attached invoice directly relates to the image numbers so there is no question on what relates to what.

An Exception · 27 Jul 2011 at 18:32

Damn, I clicked the links hoping to see the actual images in question

Derek W · 27 Jul 2011 at 18:37

Ejizz said:
Damn, I clicked the links hoping to see the actual images in question

space is at a premium on my server so had to remove them for my latest programme shots....all of the pre season friendly matches

Rojin · 27 Jul 2011 at 19:11

Ideally they should have contacted when they read the invoice to clarify the situation. I'm still concerned there is no mention of fees in the email body.

If we receive an invoice that doesn't reflect the original contract the invoice is rejected back to the issuer.

Derek W · 27 Jul 2011 at 19:18

Rojin said:
Ideally they should have contacted when they read the invoice to clarify the situation. I'm still concerned there is no mention of fees in the email body.

If we receive an invoice that doesn't reflect the original contract the invoice is rejected back to the issuer.

but you would contact that person and clarify the situation / not use the material supplied?

Rojin · 27 Jul 2011 at 19:56

I would, although in my industry invoices are only received/sent after the work has been carried out (we also don't start any work until we have a purchase order from the client that we know we can invoice against).

I would just keep contacting the paper (get them on the phone, send an invoice by recorded delivery etc.). Hopefully they're just being tardy. Plenty of companies are currently leaving payments as long as they can in order to smooth cashflow.

The_Abyss · 27 Jul 2011 at 22:58

Sort it out but don't blame the individual. Images sent in on a disc - CD to the editorial desk, invoice somewhere else. Images used, invoice queried, probably rejected straightaway as one person recalls the agreement to use with credit.

Sometimes it really pays to just pick up the phone or go round and see them.

Fr0dders · 28 Jul 2011 at 00:13

The_Abyss said:
or go round and see them.

this would be my next line of attack.

Go into the officer and ask to speak to somebody

neil_g · 28 Jul 2011 at 08:12

Derek W said:
when have i ever stated that i was a professional?

official photographer of a football club? selling photos?

id call that a profession

Derek W · 28 Jul 2011 at 13:17

neil_g said:
official photographer of a football club? selling photos?

id call that a profession

I'd call it a successful hobby

booyaka · 28 Jul 2011 at 16:59

If it helps and you want me to hand deliver anything to the paper - give me a shout - I live in ayr so happy to hand deliver anything you may wish.

Russinating · 28 Jul 2011 at 17:16

Unfortunately you live and learn.

Always have a contract. Always get payment upfront for new clients and 50% upfront/50% on supply for existing ones.

I know it's a pita but if you don't then this happens.

neil_g · 29 Jul 2011 at 08:34

Derek W said:
I'd call it a successful hobby

not sure the tax man would agree

neil_g · 29 Jul 2011 at 08:38

Russinating said:
Unfortunately you live and learn.

Always have a contract. Always get payment upfront for new clients and 50% upfront/50% on supply for existing ones.

I know it's a pita but if you don't then this happens.

unfortunately this is never going to be possible with news publications, they always run so close to deadlines for printing that by the time payment comes through theyd already be working on the next edition.

like i say just make sure you have in writing an agreement on fees before hand. most of the time, magazines do at least, there is a set rate based on coverage of the page (i.e. - a sliding scale for 1/16 page, 1/8 page, 1/4 page etc) so i just get them to commit to their rates when they make the initial enquiry for images.

Russinating · 29 Jul 2011 at 10:59

neil_g said:
unfortunately this is never going to be possible with news publications, they always run so close to deadlines for printing that by the time payment comes through theyd already be working on the next edition.

Unfortunately that basically means you have no security blanket. I'm owed (or was owed, depending on your viewpoint!) £600 by a local magazine. They put the company into administration and moved the publication to another one, so while the magazine is still operating there's nothing I can do.

neil_g · 29 Jul 2011 at 12:48

Russinating said:
Unfortunately that basically means you have no security blanket. I'm owed (or was owed, depending on your viewpoint!) £600 by a local magazine. They put the company into administration and moved the publication to another one, so while the magazine is still operating there's nothing I can do.

surely thats a separate problem, whether you were a supplier on invoice basis or providing a one off service when a company goes into administration theres no guarentee anyone will be paid.

i think this thread is more about difference of opinion on payment.