Pre crash house prices

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http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=26108


-Irish Independent 16-03-06---------------------------------------------------------------

€3m price tag on 4-bed city semi a sign of boom times



WITH a price tag that is expected to jump above €3m at auction today this modest family semi detached home (left) is likely to prove beyond the grasp of most young newly-weds.

But given that near neighbours include top chef Patrick Guilbaud and the Argentinian Embassy, auctioneers Lisney are expecting no shortage of interest in this Dublin property.

Number 13 Ailesbury Drive, Donnybrook was built in the early 1950s and when the bidding starts today the advised minimum value for the four bedroom, 2020 sq feet house, with a 92-foot rear garden, will be €2.5m.

But such prices are intended merely to get matters off the ground and industry observers expect it to eventually sell for a considerably higher price.

It is all far removed from the property market of the mid 1990s. In 1995 the highest price reached at auction in the first half of that year was less than £700,000 for a six-bedroom, semi-detached, three-storey house at 51 Ailesbury Road.

Anyone doubting how zany property prices have become should read the latest auction results.

Just last week another semi-detached home in nearby Sandymount had an advised minimum guide of €5m. But at auction the Edwardian home in Park Avenue sold for €9m, a far cry from the £54,695 paid for it in 1974.

That property was not unique as another home in Dublin also sold last week for over €5m. A four-bedroom detached house in Glenageary sold for €6.4m


Look at the date this was posted:

Posted 21 March 2006 - 10:41 AM
They're behaving like Lemmings.

The outcome will be recession followed by repossession followed by regulation. The 3 Rs.


And really how stupid do you have to be to take a mortgage like this
http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?showtopic=166158



his weeks latest mad "dreams to nightmares" scenario is those UK savvy investors who bought flats in Cyprus, and financed them with Swiss Franc mortages (at 2.5SF to the UK Peso)....

This was in Saturdays Times but I don't subscribe, here's another account of the mess.

http://www.mindfulmo...-investors.html

Thousands of people who took out foreign currency mortgages on overseas properties are facing negative equity and repossession as exchange rates move the wrong way.

Back in 2007 and 2008 Swiss franc mortgages were sold to investors buying properties in Cyprus. But the Greek debt crisis has sent repayments on this type of mortgage soaring and many borrowers unable to meet monthly repayments.

If you take out a foreign currency mortgage your mortgage repayments and the loan value in Sterling change with currency movements. But if rates don't work in your favour the amount you owe can spiral very quickly. Investors in Cyprus have found this out the hard way.
Swiss franc mortgages were popular with buyers in Cyprus a few years ago as the interest rate was much lower than that available in the Cyprus pound (Cyprus joined the euro in January 2008). A mortgage in Cyprus pounds would have been at a rate of about 8% but Swiss franc loans had rates of about 4%.
The trouble is, the past three years has seen the Swiss franc nearly double in value. At the same time property prices in Cyprus have collapsed. It's virtually impossible to sell and those homeowners who do try find the sale price is not enough to pay off their mortgage.
This weekend The Times highlighted some borrowers who have been caught out by foreign currency mortgages.
One couple had bought an apartment in 2008 and took out a Swiss franc mortgage with Alpha Bank Cyprus. The deal involved not paying anything for three years and after that repayments were expected to be about £680 a month. However, exchange rate movements mean their monthly repayments are actually £1,100.
Meanwhile falling property prices put the couple in negative equity which makes switching mortgages or selling up very difficult.
 
The biggest issue with house prices falling to a sensible level is that no one who bought a house at the inflated prices is willing to admit that they were a tit and should have realised that what they did was stupid. The greater issue however is that no one wants their house to suddenly drop massively in value meaning that their mortgage is more than the value of the house.

Its all a massive mess but one that will have to be sorted eventually. £160,000 is far too much for a house when the average salary is just above £20,000. Hopefully house prices will plummet soon and the idiots that thought their two bedroom terrace house was worth £150,000 will realise that a little common sense would have saved them a lot of problems.
 
The biggest issue with house prices falling to a sensible level is that no one who bought a house at the inflated prices is willing to admit that they were a *** and should have realised that what they did was stupid. The greater issue however is that no one wants their house to suddenly drop massively in value meaning that their mortgage is more than the value of the house.

Its all a massive mess but one that will have to be sorted eventually. £160,000 is far too much for a house when the average salary is just above £20,000. Hopefully house prices will plummet soon and the idiots that thought their two bedroom terrace house was worth £150,000 will realise that a little common sense would have saved them a lot of problems.

When house prices have been consistently rising for over 15 years though as they had been pre-crash at some point people stop looking for the crash as there was no definite way to predict exactly when it would happen. So it became a case of get on the market or suffer.
 
House prices are quite scary, our current house was bought at 62,500 in 1997 ish a slightly less desirable, but otherwise identical house on the same road just went for 480K so this one would probably be valued at half a million currently :S
 
My cousins bought at the boom and are now looking to sell at a loss to move closer to the family.

On the plus side it recently got filmed for one of those property programs, airing in Janurary :S
 
The crash never happened, people have just got more in debt/cut back on spending, hence the economy tanking, jobs going because nobody is spending like they did in the 00s, people that have a mortgage and work cant afford to spend like they did, its that simple, A 60 year old couple put a house of family that died, 2 bed ex council house for £125k a few weeks ago, right next to a single mother in a council house with 3 young kids running riot. Mind blown.
 
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Unless someone suddenly starts building 400,000 new homes every year then there will always be more people wanting houses than there are houses to sell. That keeps prices high and will continue to do so.

What screwed so many people over was that they had bought something in the 90s or 80s, prices had rocketed, they remortgaged up to the eyeballs so that they could buy a new car or go on holiday and then prices dropped again. Leaving millions with a mortgage of 130+% of the value of the house.

All the time you are happy in your home and have the money to pay the mortgage the price of houses is irrelevant. It becomes an issue if you are trying to remortgage or sell to get somewhere else.
 
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When house prices have been consistently rising for over 15 years though as they had been pre-crash at some point people stop looking for the crash as there was no definite way to predict exactly when it would happen. So it became a case of get on the market or suffer.

As Windle says, property prices were consistently rising year on year to the extent where, if you didn't get on the market, then you probably would suffer even if it meant buying at a slightly inflated price. The average age of the FTB now is around 38!!! (sources available)


I have said this a few times but I will say it again :p

All a house price drop will do is reduce the housing stock on the market or reduce the number of sales as no one will sell their house at a loss unless they really need to for certain reasons e.g. financial, up-sizing due to family (baby).

Would you sell at a loss without having to?
 
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Hopefully house prices will plummet soon and the idiots that thought their two bedroom terrace house was worth £150,000 will realise that a little common sense would have saved them a lot of problems.

What, renting? Living in a caravan? Sleeping in the car? What common sense alternative do you suggest all the idiots who, ya know, needed a house had done instead? :p
 
To show you where this is heading, look at any dense population or cities. My uncle in hong kong lives in a council flat, put it bluntly. It is own by the council, 40 storey building, has 24 hours security, it's not too bad actually. But sometimes they come up for sale, at the cost of £300,000. Size? Its about the size of the penalty area on a football pitch (probably being generous) and the building is not even in the centre of hong kong island. So what do people do? They rent. That's what happen when supply and demand skews to the extreme.

It won't be like that here as you can still get cheap houses if you are willing to move further up north or less than desirable places.

House prices won't crash though, it might level out for a couple of years but soon as the recession is over, it'll perk up again.
 
When house prices have been consistently rising for over 15 years though as they had been pre-crash at some point people stop looking for the crash as there was no definite way to predict exactly when it would happen. So it became a case of get on the market or suffer.

This is very true, people have been instilled with a fear that if they don't get on the ladder ASAP, prices will rise to such an extent that a house is no longer affordable.

Of course, this situation has been engineered by our corrupt government and banks. Over the years, the planning system has become ever more complex and restrictive, thus creating a supply shortage, therefore helping prices to rise.

Between 1999 & 2009 house prices increased by over 150%, pushing the national average house price to over 7 times the national average wage. Traditionally, this has been in the range of 3.5-4.5 times the average wage.

This has created an intergenerational wealth divide. Many under 35s currently unable to afford to buy a family home, would have been able to do so had they been born 10 years earlier, and been of a working age when house prices were more in line with wages.

The cause of the housing boom was largely as a result of market manipulation and credit deregulation performed by then chancellor, Gordon Brown, in a short sighted attempt to generate economic growth out of thin air. Naturally, people already on the housing ladder benefited from this immensely, because on paper they became very wealthy, and were able to use Mortgage Equity Withdrawal to fund home improvements, new purchases and holidays etc. Unfortunately this was a one-shot method of achieving growth and has resulted in Britain having one of the highest levels of household debt in the developed world.

The housing boom was orchestrated through a number of means. Firstly, light touch regulation of the banking industry, leading to sub-prime mortgage lending, and up to 125% mortgages being available - rather than needing to save for a deposit, you could actually borrow 125% of the value of the property you were purchasing. Secondly, housing costs were removed from inflation indexes. This circumvented the mechanism which ensured that if house prices rose sufficiently enough to distort inflation figures, interest rate rises could be used to arrest abnormal growth.

There were also other factors at play too. These include constricted supply due to increasingly restrictive planning regulations and increased demand due to immigration from EU member states, though it is unlikely that these would have had a significant impact on prices.

There were also changes made (again by Gordon Brown) to tax legistlation with regard to pension schemes and investments . These changes were made despite advice from the treasury (and various economists) not to. This resulted in billions being slashed from pension pots, and many final salary schemes ending. This resulted in people looking for other investment vehicles to fund their retirements. Buy-to-let was seen as a very sound investment, both in terms of annual yield and capital appreciation.

We have had, and still do have a housing bubble in this country. It is currently being kept inflated by low interest rates and various other tools. I do not see housing as a worthwhile investment, and will not be making a purchase until the average houseprice:wage ratio returns to more conventional levels.
In 1997, according to the Office of National Statistics, the UK national average wage was £16,666.

According to the Nationwide Building Society the Average House price in 1997 was £55k.

£16,666/£55,000 = 3.3x salary [mortgage]

* The Average First Timer Buyer mortgage in 1997 was just £41.5k [CouncilMortgageLenders]

By 2007, at the peak of the boom [according to the Office of National Statistics] the national average wage had risen to £23.5k

The Average House Price in 2007 was £185k. [According to the Nationwide, however, the CML, and Halifax have it higher. And there are countless examples of 300% increases over that same period. 1997-2007]

£185,000/£23.5k = 7.8x salary [mortgage]

The Average house price would need to fall by around 60% in value, from its peak 2007 valuation, to return to historically acceptable inflationary affordability of 3 – 3.5x salary

[Over two thirds of the UK earn less than average wage. In 2008 an ONS survey showed that over 6 million people earn £10k per annum or less. These included Hairdressers and Cleaners.]

A debt transfer has taken place then. [Polite language for THEFT.]
 
Hex all very valid points and quite a good summery.

Also you have to remember more women are working now so so house prices may be 7.8x income but they still may be 4 times household income.

I agree that house prices should come down (I owen property and would loose money) but I don't think it will happen.
 
As bad as it is perceived to be though, there are still young people having the money to buy places and being able to afford the mortgage. It's just no where near as easy as it was 5 years ago with 100%+ mortgages and rightfully so.

Purely anecdotally, my wife and I bought our 3 bed semi at 24 2 years ago. We saved 33k just for the deposit and then spent another 20k doing it up. We were both living at home with parents and were shovelling money away as fast as we could. She was a newly qualified district nurse on 21k and I work in TV (on about 28k at the time but working in the city of London so more travel and stuff). That took us less than 3 years to drum up.

My brother and his GF are currently saving to start looking for a house in the new year. Both are still living at home with parents and are 23 & 24. She is a district nurse on about 26k, he is a web dev team leader on about 31k. By the time 2012 comes around they'll have been saving for about 18 months and will have over 30k ready to drop on somewhere.

We were/are all charged about £300 a month by parents for rent and everything else was ours to do whatever with.

It's more than possible for many people to save up and buy their own place. Too many people are desperate to flee the nest at 18 to "live their life", rent for 10 years and party hard only to then complain that they cant get a mortgage as they have no savings. Unfortunately you can't have it both ways.

We worked our backsides off to get our money together to buy our place.

Some prices for reference in my area

My parents house in the dreaded East Croydon is a 3 bed end of terrace house. No off street parking but 15 minute walk form a mainline station. Next doors sold 1 year ago for £230k, the other next door sold 2 years ago for £213k. The one next door to that sold for £183k just 6 months ago, but needs double glazing, central heating and completely gutting inside.

The average price of a semi in my postcode which is just inside the M25 in a secluded area of green belt over the last 2 years is £245k. Half of them here don't have drives while half do. We paid £218k for one for off street parking for 4 cars with room for another if we remodel the front garden, it needed a whole new kitchen and bathroom, rewiring and redecorating in every room as it was owned by a 70 year old woman who hadn't done anything to it in 20 years.

Price ARE insane, but its still doable.
 
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