Gunman on Virginia Tech campus

If I lived in the US I'd likely own a gun too - though I'd likely keep it at home (in a safe) or would perhaps take in the car.

I've also used guns regularly and had rather a lot of training and real life practice on and off ranges including firing from moving vehicles etc... but I'd still fairly likely be handing over my wallet if robbed in the street.

I think having very few guns in society is better, but given that there are already plenty of guns around in the US, if I lived there I'd also own one.
 
In all seriousness though kwerk, what city/state do you live in? Executing a BK full of people sounds pretty grim.
 
dowie said:
Totally true, but you've raised a different point

In some circumstances perhaps, sometimes... but opens up even more possibilities for things going wrong. Now the guy who would have simply given up his wallet and reported the incident to the police is caught up in a gun battle because some fat have a go hero is exercising his 2nd amendment rights.

The stats speak for themselves on this matter tbh...
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Yes, the stats do speak for themselves, and they don't support your argument at all.

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp#right-to-carry
 
hurfdurf said:
Indeed. Not having guns readily available means one can run away when faced with a weapon.
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Well, except again, the stats don't really support the idea that it has any impact on the overall crime rates at all.

You can make some retarded statistics that make it look like gun control reduces crime (like looking at 'gun murders' and that sort of thing), but all that happens is the murders happen with alternative weapons, or alternatively, the murder rate goes up for other reasons, but it happens pretty consistently. If you ban weapons, you only take them from the law abiding, you don't stop the criminal who either carries the banned weapon anyway or finds an alternative.
 
Dolph said:
Well, except again, the stats don't really support the idea that it has any impact on the overall crime rates at all.

You can make some retarded statistics that make it look like gun control reduces crime (like looking at 'gun murders' and that sort of thing), but all that happens is the murders happen with alternative weapons, or alternatively, the murder rate goes up for other reasons, but it happens pretty consistently. If you ban weapons, you only take them from the law abiding, you don't stop the criminal who either carries the banned weapon anyway or finds an alternative.
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well look at the Norwegian bloke, he couldn't get the guns illegally so he just got them legally.


if you don't know lots of criminals (like most of these mass killers don;t) then you'll find it much harder to et an illegal gun than a legal one.
 
Tefal said:
well look at the Norwegian bloke, he couldn't get the guns illegally so he just got them legally.
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Fully automatic weapons are illegal in Norway, so I'm pretty sure he didn't ;)

He also obtained large quantities of material that can be used to make explosives, should we ban that too? There's going to be a hell of a list if we go down that route...

if you don't know lots of criminals (like most of these mass killers don;t) then you'll find it much harder to et an illegal gun than a legal one.
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Probably, but there are always alternative methods available. Banning guns doesn't stop nutters, it causes them to find alternative methods. That's why basing legislation on the activities of a few crazy people is stupid, pointless and irrational, even if it does make the proles feel better.
 
dowie said:
They do

compare number of people shot in the average US city with the number of people shot in the average UK city
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Perhaps you need to read the post I made after the one quoted where I mentioned the retarded use of made up irrelevant and cherrypicked statistics.

What effect has the UK handgun ban had on the overall murder rate?

What effect did the chicago handgun ban have on the murder rate?

What effect did the Washington DC handgun ban have on the murder rate?

What effect did the 'Shall issue' concealed carry system in Florida and Texas have on the murder rate?

It's all in the link provided. May I suggest you actually start quoting actual figures, with sources, and be sure to avoid irrelevant ones like 'gun deaths', 'gun murders' and the like, and stick with good overall figures so you aren't just hiding the criminals who simply use an alternative tool, thereby proving that the gun is not the problem...
 
Dolph said:
Fully automatic weapons are illegal in Norway, so I'm pretty sure he didn't ;)
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he didn't use a fully automatic weapons though cause he couldn't get one illegally, he used legally a bought shotgun, semi auto mini ruger 14 and a legal semi auto pistol.
 
Banning guns doesn't stop nutters, it causes them to find alternative methods.
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Of course it doesn't but having a culture in which guns are widely carried and used (whether legally or not) has a big impact.

Of the many thousands of gun murders in the states very few were caused by the odd headline school shooting. In fact cases where some nutter has gone on a rampage are insignificant compared with murders as a whole. Tis pointless even mentioning nutters - we've had nutters over here also with much tighter gun controls.
 
Tefal said:
he didn't use a fully automatic weapons though cause he couldn't get one illegally, he used legally a bought shotgun, semi auto mini ruger 14 and a legal semi auto pistol.
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My mistake, I've not been keeping up to speed with it all since the initial news reports which claimed he had automatic weapons.

However, do you really think that he would have called the whole thing off if he'd been unable to get any guns?
 
dowie said:
Of course it doesn't but having a culture in which guns are widely carried and used (whether legally or not) has a big impact.

Of the many thousands of gun murders in the states very few were caused by the odd headline school shooting. In fact cases where some nutter has gone on a rampage are insignificant compared with murders as a whole. Tis pointless even mentioning nutters - we've had nutters over here also with much tighter gun controls.
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actually nutters are very relevant as it was a nutter shooting spree that was responsible for our tighter gun laws.
 
dowie said:
Of course it doesn't but having a culture in which guns are widely carried and used (whether legally or not) has a big impact.

Of the many thousands of gun murders in the states very few were caused by the odd headline school shooting. In fact cases where some nutter has gone on a rampage are insignificant compared with murders as a whole. Tis pointless even mentioning nutters - we've had nutters over here also with much tighter gun controls.
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Indeed, but again you're still trying to pull out 'gun murders' as if they are different to other murders, a position which there is absolutely no supporting evidence for. There is no evidence to back up the idea that the availability of guns increases the overall murder rate, or that banning them decreases it.

A murder is a murder, whether it's performed with a gun, a knife, a solid rubber chicken or a shoelace.
 
Tefal said:
actually nutters are very relevant as it was a nutter shooting spree that was responsible for our tighter gun laws.
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Which have done nothing to actually reduce crime... Which makes them kind of pointless, draconian and unnecessary.
 
Dolph said:
My mistake, I've not been keeping up to speed with it all since the initial news reports which claimed he had automatic weapons.

However, do you really think that he would have called the whole thing off if he'd been unable to get any guns?
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Course not, but he'd be limited to purely explosives and he showed he was capable at making them but not adept at placing them (there's much more margin for error in making and placing a bomb than a gunshot.


But it did once again prove that the whole "requiring them to be a member of a gun club and take lessons will weed out the nutters" as he had to do that too, and no one picked up on it.


also you mentioned the chemicals he used to make the bombs he was actually flagged for buying them but the security services dismissed it. (guess white guy didn't fit the profile)
 
Dolph said:
Perhaps you need to read the post I made after the one quoted where I mentioned the retarded use of made up irrelevant and cherrypicked statistics.
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Its hardly cherry picked tbh.. it is blatantly obvious

What effect has the UK handgun ban had on the overall murder rate?
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Not much, if at all but its hardly relevant - hand gun murders were and are still very rare over here - but you're completely missing the point. Having lots of guns present and carried within a society increases the chance of guns being used and therefore people being killed - its that simple.

What effect did the Washington DC handgun ban have on the murder rate?
[..] etc..
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I'm sorry but there isn't a border around Washington DC - banning hand guns in a city inside a country in which they are freely available isn't necessarily going to do much.

Murder rate in DC is over 10 times that of the UK... they already had a massive gun problem before banning/attempting to ban hand guns.
 
Tefal said:
actually nutters are very relevant as it was a nutter shooting spree that was responsible for our tighter gun laws.
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Yes but the laws were a knee jerk reaction and likely had little to no effect. As far as murders are concerned the odd nutter is completely irrelevant and isn't really a good argument either for or against guns.

(either he couldn't have got them if they were banned or someone could have stopped him if everyone was carrying etc... both POV are equally retarded)
 
Tefal said:
Course not, but he'd be limited to purely explosives and he showed he was capable at making them but not adept at placing them (there's much more margin for error in making and placing a bomb than a gunshot.

But it did once again prove that the whole "requiring them to be a member of a gun club and take lessons will weed out the nutters" as he had to do that too, and no one picked up on it.

also you mentioned the chemicals he used to make the bombs he was actually flagged for buying them but the security services dismissed it. (guess white guy didn't fit the profile)
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Again, the problem is you can't legislate against nutters, especially higher functioning nutters.

I mentioned the chemicals because, although this particular one was flagged by the security services, if we're going to try to ban everything that can be used to make a bomb, we're going to have to ban an awful lot of stuff, including a lot of stuff from household kitchens, most fuel oils etc etc. Or to put it another way, you'll never actually succeed in making it impossible for nutters to commit crimes, and the impact attempting to do so will have on the liberties of the rest of the population mean it should never be considered.
 
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