Eurozone up the spout

IceBus said:
Anyone who thinks this is a good thing is a cretin.
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For me being "right" about the financial mess the last 20+ years has created has never been about any kind of gloating. It's about making the first steps towards a more honest world.

Western economies have been relying on lies about their future growth to boost their GDP and credit limits for many, many years. That's why debt has rocketed, and why investment banking has grown rich handling everything from benefits payments to national debt. They don't care what happens as long as they get their %age.

Now the growth lie has been found out we are going to have to adjust to a rather different future. We in the West can head there with our eyes open and belts tightened, or we can close our eyes and walk off the cliff into Argentina type crisis... only without the resources Argentina had to aid their recovery.

Having said all that, if I was a betting man I'd be betting on a huge stock market rally when the next round of quantitative diarrhoea is announced. We're back to that human nature and predictability thing. :-)
 
cheets64 said:
Luxury life has been handed to us on a plate, go read about life 90 years ago and come back say that, this life is luxury enjoy it while it lasts, piped heating, running water, sewage works, exotic fruits in winter, Ipad 2, top of the range car.

Survival of the fittest, has never been more true.
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Gimme peace. The last 3 examples, granted, but the piped heating, running water and sewage works is hardly "luxury" in the modern Western World.
 
UK-AL05 said:
China has a rising middle class, their wages are getting higher. It will stagnate in growth, and people will look for other developing markets for cheap labour. One good fact coming from this, a lot of poor countries are now being given a chance.
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China already is doing - they are looking to mechanise, outsource and move factories inland to reduce their already rising costs of labour.
 
Energize said:
The Roman empire was destroyed by a stock market collapse? Wow you learn something new everyday.
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The Roman empire was, arguably, destroyed by over-consumption, growing beyond manageable limits, debt taken on to try and keep it going, and infighting. The modern stock market reflects all those issues in the modern world, and many more besides.

There is a very strong case, IMO, for saying that a big part of this ongoing global problem is the way the USA is going through what we went through between WW1 & 2... collapse of empire. It's just that this empire is bigger than all previous empires, global markets have never been so closely tied together, and world leaders are all trying to stop the economic train shackled to the US engine from coming off the rails too fast.

The train's definitely coming off the rails at some point, it's just a case of slowing it down and buying some time for the ambulances to be at the crash scene. However central banks everywhere have been busy stoking the Keynesian boiler to try and speed through the problems, rather than applying the brakes and putting a generation of politicians out of work.

It's an interested concept, fighting a massive debt problem with the biggest expansion of debt in human history (if you don't count the time I borrowed a fiver off my brother) and I'm sure they believe it could work.

Either that or they just daren't not do it, because civilisation is only about three days deep. In their shoes I'd probably do the same.

Anyway, it's still a fascinating time to be alive and interested in financial & political matters. I'm sure all the folk starving in Somalia are on the edge of their seats worrying about it... which is my somewhat clumsy attempt to put some of this in perspective. It's also a good time to remember how fortunate we are to live in a crumbling Western empire. At least clean water comes out of the taps.

Today anyway. I hope someone's looking after the aqueducts. :-)
 
kenmare said:
Where are the Romans today?


All civilisations come to an end.
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The civilisation will not end because some stocks lost it's value. You think your electricity will stop because it's parent company's shares lost 5%? You think you won't be able to buy bread next week because tesco lost 5% in shares value?

Pleaseeeeee.
 
cheets64 said:
Luxury life has been handed to us on a plate, go read about life 90 years ago and come back say that, this life is luxury enjoy it while it lasts, piped heating, running water, sewage works, exotic fruits in winter, Ipad 2, top of the range car.

Survival of the fittest, has never been more true.
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It is call civilisation, a concept that some people cannot grasp, but fortunately we have invented places for those. Sooner or later they all end up there.

By the way, those "Mad Max" delusions, I would have them checked. :D
 
And in the midst of this sovereign debt crisis, UK bonds are at an all time low of 2.57%

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/blog/2011/aug/05/stock-market-crisis-ftse-usa-europe

But those evil conservatives are ruining our economy and destroying market trust!!!!!!!!1111onepenguin

I have to laugh at those who blame capitalism or neoliberalism for a sovereign debt crisis. How did capitalism cause governments to rack up huge debts they can't pay?
 
People proclaiming death of capitalism and similar such nonsense would do well to first read what capitalism actually is.

Start with Capitalism - Treatise on Economics by George Reisman, then come back.
 
Dolph said:
And in the midst of this sovereign debt crisis, UK bonds are at an all time low of 2.57%

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/blog/2011/aug/05/stock-market-crisis-ftse-usa-europe

But those evil conservatives are ruining our economy and destroying market trust!!!!!!!!1111onepenguin

I have to laugh at those who blame capitalism or neoliberalism for a sovereign debt crisis. How did capitalism cause governments to rack up huge debts they can't pay?
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So when the speculators destroy the EU, the US and the Japanese economies. The UK will be sat on top of the hill, looking down on the rest of pitiful nations ... :rolleyes:

Governments have tried to absorb the huge losses incurred by the financial sector ... so in your opinion we should have let all those collapse?
 
hola_adios said:
So when the speculators destroy the EU, the US and the Japanese economies. The UK will be sat on top of the hill, looking down on the rest of pitiful nations ... :rolleyes:

Governments have tried to absorb the huge losses incurred by the financial sector ... so in your opinion we should have let all those collapse?
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The bank bailout is only a small percentage of government debt - the vast majority of it is purely down to decades of government overspending, this day would have come regardless, especially the PIGS mess.
 
Jokester said:
The bank bailout is only a small percentage of government debt - the vast majority of it is purely down to decades of government overspending, this day would have come regardless, especially the PIGS mess.
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The PIGS mess is not such a mess, we are talking:
-Ireland: bank mess, overall size shouldn't affect
- Greece: government, bank ... all a mess, overall size shouldn't affect
- Portugal: same as Ireland, and the size of its economy is piddly compared to the rest of the EU.

Italy and Spain shouldn't have to be affected at all, the sovereign debt problem of the UK is considerably worst than the Spanish.

Most of the debt right now is due to 2008 crash, and in the case of some players of over 10 years of being stuck in wars.
 
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Paul_cz said:
People proclaiming death of capitalism and similar such nonsense would do well to first read what capitalism actually is.

Start with Capitalism - Treatise on Economics by George Reisman, then come back.
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You dont need to read a treatise to see the pitfalls and corruption that plague the bourgeoisie. It's a cold, logical and inevitable state of awareness; why would a being who has everything want to give it up for the sake of fairness?

Pay a man the wage he is due. Society needs to drop the operating principle that a good business venture is one that screws as much capital as possible out of the ignorant and naive consumer, essentially reducing us all to slaves. Free trade should be equal, not one mans loss is another mans mansion.

It also seems to me that there is an inversion of job worthiness. We pour countless millions into entertainers, footballers, tv personalities, actors, musicians, while scientific researchers are given a bread line pittance and less attention in the media than a social pariah. Indeed my own sister, upon completion of her 1st degree from an excellent university saw two paths ahead of her: The banking sector or lab research. Which did she take? The bank job of course, because there is no money in the later.

A sad state of affairs.
 
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It was quite obvious for those in the know that something like this was going to happen. It didn't just spring up and say hello.

In fact, a friend working in the industry was told last week that Thursday lunch time would be a busy time!
 
I'd quite like to know what everyone saying "Lol capitalism" would prefer in it's place, or whether they can even think of an alternative.
 
Vonhelmet said:
I'd quite like to know what everyone saying "Lol capitalism" would prefer in it's place, or whether they can even think of an alternative.
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Agree, but I do not think what we have seen for the last few years is capitalism at all. This is more a scam system run by shysters.
 
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