Lack of fathers root cause of violence
- Thread starter spudbynight
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Soldato
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Actually what amazes me is that you don't seem to understand the difference between what Dolph wrote and what you've been saying.
What Dolph has said is correct; that good parents are made from people with the right aspirations and attitudes - and statistically this type of person is more likely to get married, than to live in a 'broken home'.
The solution to the problem in the OP is to make more people have those same aspirations and attitudes. Whether they then choose to get married or not is irrelevant.
You seem to continually misunderstand this.
Soldato
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Succinctly put.
I split up with my ex partner when my children were 3 and 1, due to very severe domestic violence. My solicitor recently said they were some of the worst injuries he had seen when shown photos.
I'd say my child was more at risk of finding violence acceptable with both parents around, and that was one of my main concerns which led me to end the relationship.
I think there's both an issue of communication and some agenda (on both sides) here.
What is common among those who are arguing it is not 'marriage' per se, is that they actually want the 'married' lifestyle, but aren't bothered about the bit of paper.
What we need to be encouraging is the desire for traditional style families where possible, that should be the aspiration. Marriage is a tool that was traditionally used to help achieve this (and has rights and responsibilities on all parties to help with that). It isn't necessary as such, but restoring the 'desirability' of the lifestyle is somewhat intertwined with the desirability of marriage in the eyes of many, rightly or wrongly.
These days it seems to be a catch 22, we have people who refuse to get married on one side, people who rush into it (and out of it again) on the other, and somewhere in the middle, we need to reestablish what is known to work, and that is a stable homelife, something that Marriage has a history of supporting. If we need another tool to assist, then so be it, let's work out what that should be.
I thought the figure was more like £24k?
Or does your £35k equate to what a 'normal' person would have to earn to be in a similar financial situation?
I sort of agree with Spud.
While i will first off say (to avoid flaming) some children raised in SP households can grow up to be fine, there seems a blatant result and impact as a result of fatherlessness.
Much of my work i encounter this fatherlessness generation and i'd certainly agree with research and statistics that a child is much more likely to succeed in a household where both parents are together.
Trends i have noticed:
i) Crime is more likely to happen in households where Dad isn't present
ii) More likely to have teenage mothers and fathers
iii) Teenager is much less likely to be involved (to the point in one case certainly a lad i used to teach is going through his own life experience with his child)
iv) More likely to be engaged in drugs
v) Be in a gang
vi) Less likely to have a good education
vii) less likely to go to college and university (i see vi/vii on a daily basis)
viii) less likely to have active hobbies (i.e. Football)
I think that Dads in an environment are usually seen as the disciplinarian, and the head of the household image has been reserved for anything pre 1980's and throughout the 80's, 90's and 00's there is a social acceptance for children to grow up in households where one parent is not present or is infrequently present.
I'm going through divorce at the moment and have done a momentus amount of reading on this and i have to say everything that i have read, points unanimously that uninvolved and fatherless children (as it is usually temed) or so called absent Dads is a massive impact on the life chances of children.
Over 80% of the prison population has had any or no meaningful contact with their Fathers and a higher portion still have had no positive male role model in their lives.
At the same time i will say to Fathers who themselves abandon their children there should in all honesty be something that forces an element of burden on to them be it financial or a penalty driven factor. If for example society norms could be changed i.e. if you have a child you MUST BY LAW be held responsible for this child and you fail to meet these obligations then this will happen to you then it should. Its difficult to approach what would be an ideal when often as is the case, these kids having kids don't care because its what they've grown up with.
While i will first off say (to avoid flaming) some children raised in SP households can grow up to be fine, there seems a blatant result and impact as a result of fatherlessness.
Much of my work i encounter this fatherlessness generation and i'd certainly agree with research and statistics that a child is much more likely to succeed in a household where both parents are together.
Trends i have noticed:
i) Crime is more likely to happen in households where Dad isn't present
ii) More likely to have teenage mothers and fathers
iii) Teenager is much less likely to be involved (to the point in one case certainly a lad i used to teach is going through his own life experience with his child)
iv) More likely to be engaged in drugs
v) Be in a gang
vi) Less likely to have a good education
vii) less likely to go to college and university (i see vi/vii on a daily basis)
viii) less likely to have active hobbies (i.e. Football)
I think that Dads in an environment are usually seen as the disciplinarian, and the head of the household image has been reserved for anything pre 1980's and throughout the 80's, 90's and 00's there is a social acceptance for children to grow up in households where one parent is not present or is infrequently present.
I'm going through divorce at the moment and have done a momentus amount of reading on this and i have to say everything that i have read, points unanimously that uninvolved and fatherless children (as it is usually temed) or so called absent Dads is a massive impact on the life chances of children.
Over 80% of the prison population has had any or no meaningful contact with their Fathers and a higher portion still have had no positive male role model in their lives.
At the same time i will say to Fathers who themselves abandon their children there should in all honesty be something that forces an element of burden on to them be it financial or a penalty driven factor. If for example society norms could be changed i.e. if you have a child you MUST BY LAW be held responsible for this child and you fail to meet these obligations then this will happen to you then it should. Its difficult to approach what would be an ideal when often as is the case, these kids having kids don't care because its what they've grown up with.
RaohNS: I don't think anyone is really disagreeing with that. Most of these statistics have been known for years.
However, the solution proposed by the OP was to educate people into getting married.
This is a total misunderstanding. Like Dolph says, what we need to be encouraging is the desire for traditional style families, with the right aspirations and attitudes. Something that is traditionally associated with marriage.
However, the point the OP misses is that being unmarried, does not automatically exclude you from having all these qualities. Yes it's true that statistically you're less likely to have these qualities than a couple who are married, but that's not important in trying to resolve the problem of bad parenting.
In the case of single parents, I think everyone would agree that it would be nice to have children raised by a loving couple. But this isn't realistic, people can enter a relationship with the best of intentions and sometimes things don't work out. You can't avoid this. What you can do, is try to reduce the number of people who have kids before they're ready, or who rush into kids and maybe also marriage, or people who have casual sex without proper protection, etc.
Good parents will always be good parents, whether they are married, divorced, single, or whatever.
What we need to do is reduce the number of people who drag up their kids, rather than raising them.
However, the solution proposed by the OP was to educate people into getting married.
This is a total misunderstanding. Like Dolph says, what we need to be encouraging is the desire for traditional style families, with the right aspirations and attitudes. Something that is traditionally associated with marriage.
However, the point the OP misses is that being unmarried, does not automatically exclude you from having all these qualities. Yes it's true that statistically you're less likely to have these qualities than a couple who are married, but that's not important in trying to resolve the problem of bad parenting.
In the case of single parents, I think everyone would agree that it would be nice to have children raised by a loving couple. But this isn't realistic, people can enter a relationship with the best of intentions and sometimes things don't work out. You can't avoid this. What you can do, is try to reduce the number of people who have kids before they're ready, or who rush into kids and maybe also marriage, or people who have casual sex without proper protection, etc.
Good parents will always be good parents, whether they are married, divorced, single, or whatever.
What we need to do is reduce the number of people who drag up their kids, rather than raising them.
Soldato
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The three points you mention in the OP are all circumstantial and have little or no bearing on someone’s suitability to be a good parent.
Selfish and lazy people make bad parents. I think you'll find anyone, married or otherwise can be selfish and lazy.
These people maybe more likely to get divorced/not get married but blaming bad parenting on these factors is an unfair assumption. Many factors can be at play when a family unit breaks apart, and in many cases parents can still for fill they duty just as well providing they're not selfish and lazy.
Selfish and lazy people make bad parents. I think you'll find anyone, married or otherwise can be selfish and lazy.
These people maybe more likely to get divorced/not get married but blaming bad parenting on these factors is an unfair assumption. Many factors can be at play when a family unit breaks apart, and in many cases parents can still for fill they duty just as well providing they're not selfish and lazy.
Last edited:
Soldato
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What a load of crap.
All the people harping on about trends and statistics regarding marriage need to remember the phrase 'correlation does not imply causation".
It could simply be that the kind of people that tend to get married are the kind of people that tend to have more stable relationships. The marriage isn't the cake, it's the icing. The kind of people who can give serious thought to the organisation of a wedding are not the type of people who left school with no qualifications due to becoming pregnant at 14 and have spent their entire life on the dole.
Personally I have no interest in marriage and I've been blunt with my own girlfriend regarding it. Her parents are still together and married, mine aren't. I personally feel massively hypocritical about having to go through a ceremony which despite the 'omg registry office' crew keeping going on about it is religious at its core. I'm the same about christenings. Too many non-religious people use events such as these as an excuse to show off to the Joneses. It's pathetic.
I come from a traditional married family unit, but my mother and father split when I was 5. I've been raised by my mother who while at present is one of those 'thieving work dodging benefit scroungers' has been my sole source of inspiration and guidance throughout my life. I've no criminal record, I'm in full time employment, work hard and pay my taxes and despite having lived on typical Manchester council estates and having spent a large proportion of my childhood surrounded by chavs and degenerates, I've not done too badly. Granted I could have done better, but who couldn't?
It could simply be that the kind of people that tend to get married are the kind of people that tend to have more stable relationships. The marriage isn't the cake, it's the icing. The kind of people who can give serious thought to the organisation of a wedding are not the type of people who left school with no qualifications due to becoming pregnant at 14 and have spent their entire life on the dole.
Personally I have no interest in marriage and I've been blunt with my own girlfriend regarding it. Her parents are still together and married, mine aren't. I personally feel massively hypocritical about having to go through a ceremony which despite the 'omg registry office' crew keeping going on about it is religious at its core. I'm the same about christenings. Too many non-religious people use events such as these as an excuse to show off to the Joneses. It's pathetic.
I come from a traditional married family unit, but my mother and father split when I was 5. I've been raised by my mother who while at present is one of those 'thieving work dodging benefit scroungers' has been my sole source of inspiration and guidance throughout my life. I've no criminal record, I'm in full time employment, work hard and pay my taxes and despite having lived on typical Manchester council estates and having spent a large proportion of my childhood surrounded by chavs and degenerates, I've not done too badly. Granted I could have done better, but who couldn't?
Caporegime
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Some parents are good, some parents are bad, I refuse to believe anyone can insanely follow the belief that two awful parents is somehow better than one bad parent, or one much better parent.
Kids still need to, even with good parents, choose to do the right thing, ultimately good vs bad, its a choice the individual takes.
One other thing to keep in mind is, would less kids be upset and act out if one parent is missing, if society wasnt' convincing them they are "less than" then should be because they are missing one or both parents?
In reality many fathers in two parent families, work all day, go out at night and barely spend any time with their kids anyway, more and more two parent families have both parents out more often than in, working hard and according to the press, neglecting their kids.
We seem to have, out of no where, our of some ridiculous idea's born 100 years ago, refused to treat kids equally, decided to treat kids as less than other people WELL into their adult years, aswell as getting ourselves into this state where if a mother and father don't spend every minute with their kids, the kid is missing out.
Evolutionary wise, the way humans lived for several millenia, we're suddenly making up new rules, new idea's, treating people differently and wondering why its not working.
The teachers I had in school who taught best and I wanted to listen to, treated us like people who wanted to learn and not as people to be commanded. The worst teachers, shouted, screamed and looked down on the kids. We've created a tiered society and excluded kids rights, opinions, and we're increasing the age of "adulthood" constantly, for reasons I can't fathom.
We're forcing people into longer education, while the education is worse, getting worse teachers.
Look at all these complete idiots in the riots talking about stealing from the rich business owners. How can people be completely unaware that for every rich business owner, theres a business owner on the brink of bankruptcy, that has gone into massive debt to open a store and has to work hard for a small wage to keep the company going.
Likewise they are ruining the lives of other people who work in that store and can't live without that money.
Seriously, how can we let kids be so completely unaware of whats going on, its largely because we insist on treating kids as stupid, and just kids who don't have to take responsibility or care about the harsh realities of the world till later on...... hows that working out, we've just got a generation of kids who don't know whats going on in the world, don't know how to work hard, don't understand how the economy works, have no responsibility.
Kids don't need fathers, kids need to be treated as people and expected to be responsible from a young age. most of these guys rioting are acting irresponsibly, because they don't know anything else.
Kids still need to, even with good parents, choose to do the right thing, ultimately good vs bad, its a choice the individual takes.
One other thing to keep in mind is, would less kids be upset and act out if one parent is missing, if society wasnt' convincing them they are "less than" then should be because they are missing one or both parents?
In reality many fathers in two parent families, work all day, go out at night and barely spend any time with their kids anyway, more and more two parent families have both parents out more often than in, working hard and according to the press, neglecting their kids.
We seem to have, out of no where, our of some ridiculous idea's born 100 years ago, refused to treat kids equally, decided to treat kids as less than other people WELL into their adult years, aswell as getting ourselves into this state where if a mother and father don't spend every minute with their kids, the kid is missing out.
Evolutionary wise, the way humans lived for several millenia, we're suddenly making up new rules, new idea's, treating people differently and wondering why its not working.
The teachers I had in school who taught best and I wanted to listen to, treated us like people who wanted to learn and not as people to be commanded. The worst teachers, shouted, screamed and looked down on the kids. We've created a tiered society and excluded kids rights, opinions, and we're increasing the age of "adulthood" constantly, for reasons I can't fathom.
We're forcing people into longer education, while the education is worse, getting worse teachers.
Look at all these complete idiots in the riots talking about stealing from the rich business owners. How can people be completely unaware that for every rich business owner, theres a business owner on the brink of bankruptcy, that has gone into massive debt to open a store and has to work hard for a small wage to keep the company going.
Likewise they are ruining the lives of other people who work in that store and can't live without that money.
Seriously, how can we let kids be so completely unaware of whats going on, its largely because we insist on treating kids as stupid, and just kids who don't have to take responsibility or care about the harsh realities of the world till later on...... hows that working out, we've just got a generation of kids who don't know whats going on in the world, don't know how to work hard, don't understand how the economy works, have no responsibility.
Kids don't need fathers, kids need to be treated as people and expected to be responsible from a young age. most of these guys rioting are acting irresponsibly, because they don't know anything else.
As per my previous post you're missing the point, marriage does not make these people better parents. The commitment and love they have for eath other that caused them to get married is what affects this.Statistically you're much less likely to fail your kids?
Of course, you say that doesn't apply to you, but so does everyone else, and it can't be true for everyone, otherwise the statistics wouldn't be what they are
Dissolutioned scrotes who sleep with anything are less likely to get married than a successful and/or responsible couple. Not surprisingly the responsible are also more likely to raise better children.
So then it could be said that 'married couples are on average better parents' and statistically this would be true, but getting married does not magically make better parents, to suggest so is poppycock.
I think saying that good parents are more likely to get married is the most accurate. This shows that not getting married doesn't make you a bad parent.
That's what I'm basically saying... Or trying to.
Even though the implication could be the same, the order of the words plays a big part in how it will be perceived.
Most good parents tend to get married. Implies unmarried parents can still be good.
Married people are better parents. Implies that unmarried parents are bad.
Soldato
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I'd rate them above having a crap single parent or married chavs for parents.
What if they were gay chavs?