Riots in Tottenham, London! (NO RACIST COMMENTS)

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Dolph said:
The most obvious would be the one where a shift change is done, no extra hours are worked, but pay is at overtime rates. (Yes, I'm aware this does not occur within all forces). Add in things like a chronic lack of overtime monitoring or validation and it is clear that some things need to change.

Other such things are all noted in the following source.

http://library.npia.police.uk/docs/homeoffice/police-overtime.pdf



Well, the use of warranted officers for roles not requiring a warrant, and counting them in officer numbers, and paying them officer rates would be one...
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I do like that approach of trying to save pennies to waste thousands, feels like holiday is over and I am back at work :D
 

LOL, I'm trying to work out if it's irony, stupidity or the early onset dementia that seems to plague labour MPs spreading to the ranks... All these kids grew up under Labour. Their plan of throwing money at them without any commitment to responsibility, surprisingly, completely failed and instead brought up another 'entitlement' generation.
 
avec said:
Benefit cash should be replaced with a system that pays rent and bills directly, first and foremost, from the money that people receive.

The rest of the cash should be given mostly in food stamps which allow the claimants to eat and survive. They should also receive assistance with travel to and from any job interviews and indeed any job they get, for a certain period of time.
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Agree.

avec said:
There is no honesty and very few morals left amongst top level politicians.

The ones that are there with a genuine passion to serve the country and make things better are hopelessly entwined and manipulated by the career politicians who have massive agendas and secrets to cover up and hide.
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Agree. I honestly believe that those at the top in this country (aristos, politicians, bankers, big business, fat cats) really don't give a flying Frisbee about anyone else but themselves.

We need a new era of openness, justice and fairness, real community values and common sense.
 
hola_adios said:
How far back in time do we have to go back to find riots on a scale like these ones? In the UK of course (Swing riots? 19th century?).

My point is that if the situation has deteriorated this much, and riots at this scale are not common a occurrence in the UK, and none of those involved have and economical or social segregation problems, we are left with other alternatives, e.g. it is not lack of education, it is worst is an excess of the wrong type of education and the wrong ethical code been used.

These kids were acting coordinated, very well coordinated in fact, and almost all of them knew exactly when it become too dangerous to go and commit criminal acts again. The patterns of attacks and how they were acting in front of the police were rather scary once you look at the images and follow the places and timings of the attacks.

It is the new ways of mob mentality, much more fluid and with instant communications between individual components, it has been demonstrated in a much bigger scale in the Arab countries, and we have just seen a snippet of it here.

Just by waving this off and not analysing the situation further we will allow the problem to get much worst. In this scenario people shouting "these are just criminals" have their heads as stuck in the sand as much as those going "poor kids, society has let them down".
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July 2011, East Belfast? I don't want to belittle what has happened in England but I don't think the Rioting itself was that bad, lots of looting, arson and the polices running round like muppets. But the rioting was a little tame, I think policing was the issue. They have lost credibility in the eye's of many, they are viewed as soft and ineffective. Not surprising given the fall out for the G8 protest and the resulting death.
 
Dolph said:
The most obvious would be the one where a shift change is done, no extra hours are worked, but pay is at overtime rates. (Yes, I'm aware this does not occur within all forces). Add in things like a chronic lack of overtime monitoring or validation and it is clear that some things need to change.

Other such things are all noted in the following source.

http://library.npia.police.uk/docs/homeoffice/police-overtime.pdf



Well, the use of warranted officers for roles not requiring a warrant, and counting them in officer numbers, and paying them officer rates would be one...
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Overtime is scrutinised and if you have to stay on then the shift inspector has to ok it. When I say have to stay on, I mean to get a job sorted and not sit with your feet up.

As for warranted officers in roles not requiring them, what would happen if Unison staff decided on industrial action ? Here I mean in roles such as control rooms which are largely staffed by non police officers. Rumblings are often heard from Unison members about striking in the face if austerity cuts.
 
im just glad things seems to be settling down now. Now lets get these people in court and punished for there actions.

also ive read that some councils have said any tenants convicted of rioting and causing criminal damage could face eviction. I think this is spot on and it will show these people they cannot go on like that!
 
Furos said:
im just glad things seems to be settling down now. Now lets get these people in court and punished for there actions.

also ive read that some councils have said any tenants convicted of rioting and causing criminal damage could face eviction. I think this is spot on and it will show these people they cannot go on like that!
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I'd agree with that, it would be a fair consequence. I wonder what the reactionary would be though.
 
Von Smallhausen said:
Overtime is scrutinised and if you have to stay on then the shift inspector has to ok it. When I say have to stay on, I mean to get a job sorted and not sit with your feet up.

As for warranted officers in roles not requiring them, what would happen if Unison staff decided on industrial action ? Here I mean in roles such as control rooms which are largely staffed by non police officers. Rumblings are often heard from Unison members about striking in the face if austerity cuts.
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I wonder how many acculmated hours of unpaid overtime there are. ;)
 
That's another good point.

The non front line staff in the police 'service', who deal with answering phones, managing the police officers who are actually on the streets and all the other nonsense paperwork and customer service crap, are the ones who can and will strike over these cuts.

The front line police who take all the risks, do all the hard work and deserve as much credit and reward as they already get (and probably a fair bit more) are the ones who will not strike or walk out and turn their back on the country, even in the face of cuts that will hit them pretty hard.

This means the cuts will more likely result in front line officers suffering, whilst all the pen pusher office monkeys will retain everything.
 
StriderX said:
More crime, its obvious, why people don't come to the conclusion...is beyond me.
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You have to wonder, as they said they were rioting "cause nothing will happen to them" If they get punished enough, maybe it will teach them that their are consequences to their actions?
 
robgmun said:
You have to wonder, as they said they were rioting "cause nothing will happen to them" If they get punished enough, maybe it will teach them that their are consequences to their actions?
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yep i think if you have a teenage kid and his mam and dad face eviction becuase of him you would think they would want there child to change and realise what they have done has an effect on the whole family.

i know my son would never go on like these scum that we have seen in recent days. he knows what is expected of him and i know he wont do anything to let us down.
 
avec said:
That's another good point.

The non front line staff in the police 'service', who deal with answering phones, managing the police officers who are actually on the streets and all the other nonsense paperwork and customer service crap, are the ones who can and will strike over these cuts.

The front line police who take all the risks, do all the hard work and deserve as much credit and reward as they already get (and probably a fair bit more) are the ones who will not strike or walk out and turn their back on the country, even in the face of cuts that will hit them pretty hard.

This means the cuts will more likely result in front line officers suffering, whilst all the pen pusher office monkeys will retain everything.
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Which shows that the police forces are also trying to run something as a jobs club rather than a public service if they give in to that sort of pressure. It just shows how outdated our strike laws are that employers can be bullied into making the wrong decision for their customers by a small proportion of their staff...
 
another part of the problem is that the courts and senteneces are not going to be an effective detterent for these people.

there is no real punishment. and as mentioned going to prison for a lot of people is easier than their current lives.
 
StriderX said:
In our prisons?

Our prisons are better to live in than the crappy houses they probably live in now, its no where near a deterant.

Plus im blaming everyone because its correct to do so, we live in a democracy, everyone is guilty of complacency here, these yobs deserve their time in prison, but i have no reason to believe the government right now can solve the problems at the core of the issue, WE must solve it, we cant wait on some worthless chain of political bull out of Westminster, which will take god only knows how many years just to think of something...
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I didn't call prisons a deterant, I said it was a means of reforming someones character which I believe it does.

I look around my estate and see people changing the place in which they live (community cleanups, creches, gatherings of different types for everybody including sport, gardening outside each block by residents) and it is these actions that have made the estate a nicer place to live in and have built have a community.
This is just one example of an environment on a council estate, however it was the actions of the people living here that have changed it, and if it can happen here why not for these people living in other areas? It has not, neither will it ever be the responsibility of others (1 mile or 100 miles away) to do have done this.
You had mentioned other factors as reasons for their actions such as parenting, economy, government, ignorance of the systems, but as I said, many people are going through this as well. You've said the ignorance of systems as a reason for their actions, am I right in assuming that means you believe these people to be from lower/working classes?
There are more people from lower and working classes who aren't rioting than those who are, people who have managed to bring up their children to not loot, commit arson, assault and murder. The only real difference is the parents, and parenting to teach somebody how to behave is not the responsibility of everybody. It is the responsibility of the parents.
 
robgmun said:
You have to wonder, as they said they were rioting "cause nothing will happen to them" If they get punished enough, maybe it will teach them that their are consequences to their actions?
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That is within the moment, plus most of them aren't that bright, their words are very simple and obvious.

There's no point in punishing the punished, it wont solve the issues at the very core of society, it may help in some cases, but outright kicking people out onto the streets is not the way to go.

We must be Civil about this, no point in dropping to their level.
 
StriderX said:
In our prisons?

Our prisons are better to live in than the crappy houses they probably live in now, its no where near a deterant.

Plus im blaming everyone because its correct to do so, we live in a democracy, everyone is guilty of complacency here, these yobs deserve their time in prison, but i have no reason to believe the government right now can solve the problems at the core of the issue, WE must solve it, we cant wait on some worthless chain of political bull out of Westminster, which will take god only knows how many years just to think of something...
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Frustratingly, you keep bashing down other people's solutions or suggestions, yet offer no solutions of your own. Please enlighten us on what we should all do to solve this problem, so we can go about the rest of our lives.
 
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