The reason why Free To Play MMO's are destroying the Genre

The first 2 games cost £2/£4 each. Very few people buy CE for each one, 4 games in total. I think WOTLK is £10. That's.. oh. £38 quid? Most players would play for 2/3 years tbh. Assuming they do 6 months at a time for £40, never buy anything else = £160. That' £198 bob. Cheaper than all of your GW stuff.
Now let's also assume they buy a realm transfer, and a faction change. That's £45. Overpriced, but = £243. Close to the amount you spent on your GW account. Most people don't buy the vanity pets they offer. So.. meh, that's nowhere near as much as you say it is. I've played about 5 years 8 months now, I've still, even with tons of realm transfers, etc, only cost £600 or so. Nowhere near your £723.

Assuming the worst is never good for an argument, assuming the most logical is.

I was comparing buying the games at release prices, and playing them for as long as I've played GW.

People hate admitting that WoW is better, or Runescape is worse (Or vice-versa) But, when you say moronic arguments like "wow has same content as a f2p" then you're just being... well, a moron.
WoW is a HUGE game. Anyone who argues otherwise has not played it longer than five minutes. I have around a years worth of hours played, literally that much, on the game. And I've always had something new to do. There was always something new to experience.

GW has the same content as WoW, plus its more challenging and has superior PVP. GW is a MASSIVE game and has kept a lot of people entertained for many years now, while being FTP. There is very little in WoW that actually does anything better than GW.

I played WoW for around 6-8 weeks, got bored, didnt feel like playing or paying anymore for a typical cookie cutter MMO.
 
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Haven't read every post since yesterday, but I wanted to pick up on a couple of points:

- GW is not the right FTP game to consider. First off, it isn't FTP and, more importantly, it's clear that the arguments in the OP have to do with microtransactions/actual content delivered via a cash shop. GW doesn't work like that. DDO/LotRO are better comparisons. Both games are doing well and I'm not aware of massive protests by gamers that they are feeling ripped off, so that's definitely something in favour of (Western-style) FTP.

- Nobody (seriously) argues that WoW is cheaper than GW. GW is and always has been much cheaper. But it's a very different type of game. I seem to remember that ArenaNet didn't even want to market it as an MMO initially.

- GW does not have as much content as WoW. That's why it is (a lot) cheaper. It's a great game and has a very interesting design, but (by design really) in terms of sheer volume it can't compete with WoW. Better pvp? I don't know enough about GW pvp, but I'm willing to believe that. More challenging? Again, willing to be persuaded of that. But it's very easy to say WoW isn't challenging and a little harder to back it up - e.g. have you defeated every boss on heroic pre-nerf? If so, onneksi olkoon!
 
- GW is not the right FTP game to consider. First off, it isn't FTP and, more importantly, it's clear that the arguments in the OP have to do with microtransactions/actual content delivered via a cash shop. GW doesn't work like that. DDO/LotRO are better comparisons. Both games are doing well and I'm not aware of massive protests by gamers that they are feeling ripped off, so that's definitely something in favour of (Western-style) FTP.

Its pay once, play forever, the same way that DDO and Lotro's content work (GW sells larger Xpacks, DDO sells smaller packs that you buy once and play foever, and Lotro had lifetime subs available from the start - my lifetime sub was £75, and all 3 games cost arounf £50).

GW also has microtransactions and a cash shop. Its been selling costumes and makeover packs for a long time now, just like Maplestory does, but no potions, in game items or stuffl ike that. DDO + Lotro sells things like this, but you never need to buy them to complete any of the content, so it isnt buy2win or required to pay for any more than the content / expansions.

In DDO all I bought was the extra quest packs. Exactly the same thing as Guild wars, pay once, play forever.

- GW does not have as much content as WoW. That's why it is (a lot) cheaper. It's a great game and has a very interesting design, but (by design really) in terms of sheer volume it can't compete with WoW.

Quality > Quantity. While GW may have a smaller game world, there is A LOT of stuff to do in it. WoW has a vast open world but most of it has nothing but repeating kill and collect type quests. DDO has even lower quantity, but the quality of its quests with their full X and Y axis environments, traps, and massive variation from one dungeon to another massively eclipses the boring typical MMO questing you find in games like WoW.

WoW is mostly a boring grindfest with easy content, whereas GW and DDO offer far more enjoyable and challenging gameplay. When people first started playing GW, they were getting their asses handed to them in Thunderhead Keep within their first week of playing the game. Whereas in 2 months of playing WoW, I was seriously bored of such an easy grindfest with no challenge. If there is any decent and challenging content in WoW, it takes far too long to get to like most traditional MMOs. GW and DDO are nothing like that, they are challenging and interesting right from the start.

But it's very easy to say WoW isn't challenging and a little harder to back it up

Have you ever fought Dhuum at the end of the Underworld in GW, or completed Tower of Despair in DDO? WoW is like a 5 year old kids game in comparison to those two. Seriously most people who are used to WoW would find GW or DDO a lot harder and challenging if they actually stuck to playing them, DDO in particular because GW contains far too many gimmick builds and tactics these days while everyone in DDO is squishy due to the D20 D+D ruleset. But playing GW elite areas in a balanced team is a massive challenge compared to a lot of WoW type MMOs.
 
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EvE appeals to its market and audience it targets for. But does the sandbox and ethos of "do what you want", something the genre as a whole wants? No because if it was, more people would be playing it.

erm no? its because eve is hard n not for carebears :D
besides i dont pay for my accounts i plex them so doesnt that make eve f2p to?

someone pays there $15 a month can do anything
me who doeswnt pay a penny can do exactly the same ammount of stuff
theres no advantage to paying rl $ to play, all i lose out on is 400million isk a month, the way all f2p games should be

f2p games are ruinin the industry, as its never entirely free to play
someone has to pay for the servers to run these games, n if you dont fork out money for extra items you dont need or pay a subscription, the devs wouldnt make it simple as so either way your paying for the game

plus your whole pay2win, it does exist bf:heroes for example if i dont shell out however much it is for all the decent stuff, im serverely underpowerd = not free to play
 
Bhavy, you played WoW for 6-8 weeks, then gave up, and yet still think that your unbiased and have enough knowledge of WoW to state other games are better than it, no opinion required? I'm sorry, but if that's your way of reasoning, then arguing with you is as pointless as arguing with the OP. I never played Guild Wars, which is why I try not to judge it or talk about it. I have played runescape and WoW. That is why I talk of them. You played barely any WoW, yet it appears a lot of Guild Wars. You talk of WoW as if you are a veteran player, which you are not. Have you even played after cataclysm? If not, then you cannot really comment on WoW as that was the most game changing update WoW has ever received, and has made questing less "kill x, gather x" and into more types of questing, granted, they exist, but every MMO has them, and it's usually presented better and thus less grindy.
 
Bhavy, you played WoW for 6-8 weeks, then gave up, and yet still think that your unbiased and have enough knowledge of WoW to state other games are better than it, no opinion required? I'm sorry, but if that's your way of reasoning, then arguing with you is as pointless as arguing with the OP. I never played Guild Wars, which is why I try not to judge it or talk about it.

Well you should try GW then.

In 6-8 weeks you complete the whole game if you want to. Most WoW fans wont even try other MMOs for anywhere near as long as I played WoW, they will play them for a few hours to a day or two at the most before raging about the game being crap and going back to WoW.

How long exactly do Blizzard expect me to play WoW to get to anything fun or decent if 6-8 weeks isnt enough? I hate grinding, especially when combined with fees to create a cash cow. Why should I keep on paying a fee for a game that didnt interest me within the first two months of playing it?

What exactly is stopping you from getting and giving Guild wars a try?

You talk of WoW as if you are a veteran player,

How in the hell do I do that?

but every MMO has them, and it's usually presented better and thus less grindy.

I never had to do a single kill or collect quest in GW, and really dont remember any quest in DDO being based around killing or collecting. You havnt even played GW at all, and I doubt you've tried DDO either so how would you know?

At just level 5 in DDO, you get to do my favorite quest chain in the game - 'Delera's Tomb'. This can be played in less than a few hours of making a new character and it is absolutely fantastic and unbelievable over what I have played in any other MMO. In WoW I was playing for about 2 months, and absolutely nothing interesting was happening other than running around a map, talking to NPCs, being told to collect bear paws and hides, with absolutely no kind of story or plot of any kind, just completely random, unfun and boring grind.

In GW2, players will be able to do awesome fun stuff right from level 1. No need to grind through 80 levels of boring unfun repetitive grind, you will be able to get stuck right into content that feels fantastic and enjoyable to play.

Also in DDO I managed to reach level 20 in just 2-3 weeks, and was stuck right into playing raids, high level quests, and epic content without having to waste months on end of grinding while wasting money on fees. So vastly better than WoW ever could be.
 
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arguing which mmo is the best is like arguing if a dog turd is better than a cat turd.

kick your addictions.
 

Optional side quests that no one in GW actually ever does. The main 'quests' I am referring to are the story line missions.

Bah, they are pre searing too, entirely skippable if you want to. Also, in the 7 days max it takes you to run through a single campaign these days, not a single side quest is ever going to get done. In WoW you HAVE to do those quests in order to gain experience and level up.

Also every character besides my first when I was still a newbie only took less than a day to reach level 20, and after that never once had to do a single optional side quest - simply go through the main storyline and do the 'mission outposts'.
 
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Optional side quests that no one in GW actually ever does. The main 'quests' I am referring to are the story line missions.

Bah, they are pre searing too, entirely skippable if you want to. Also, in the 7 days max it takes you to run through a single campaign these days, not a single side quest is ever going to get done. In WoW you HAVE to do those quests in order to gain experience and level up.

:o
 
Well you should try GW then.

In 6-8 weeks you complete the whole game if you want to. Most WoW fans wont even try other MMOs for anywhere near as long as I played WoW, they will play them for a few hours to a day or two at the most before raging about the game being crap and going back to WoW.

How long exactly do Blizzard expect me to play WoW to get to anything fun or decent if 6-8 weeks isnt enough? I hate grinding, especially when combined with fees to create a cash cow. Why should I keep on paying a fee for a game that didnt interest me within the first two months of playing it?

What exactly is stopping you from getting and giving Guild wars a try?



How in the hell do I do that?



I never had to do a single kill or collect quest in GW, and really dont remember any quest in DDO being based around killing or collecting. You havnt even played GW at all, and I doubt you've tried DDO either so how would you know?

At just level 5 in DDO, you get to do my favorite quest chain in the game - 'Delera's Tomb'. This can be played in less than a few hours of making a new character and it is absolutely fantastic and unbelievable over what I have played in any other MMO. In WoW I was playing for about 2 months, and absolutely nothing interesting was happening other than running around a map, talking to NPCs, being told to collect bear paws and hides, with absolutely no kind of story or plot of any kind, just completely random, unfun and boring grind.

In GW2, players will be able to do awesome fun stuff right from level 1. No need to grind through 80 levels of boring unfun repetitive grind, you will be able to get stuck right into content that feels fantastic and enjoyable to play.

Also in DDO I managed to reach level 20 in just 2-3 weeks, and was stuck right into playing raids, high level quests, and epic content without having to waste months on end of grinding while wasting money on fees. So vastly better than WoW ever could be.
I love how you say "NOBODY DOES SIDE QUESTS!" As if that justifies the fact that you lied about there being no kill and collect quests.
EVERY MMO has them. Regardless of how it's presented. LateXdog himself posted a few kill and collect quests. And your classifying your opinion above everyone's else. Along with trying to represent all of the GW population.

And you say that they can do awesome stuff from level 1? So there is no progression of any kind? Nice, your saying that your OP basically, all the time.
That is not a good thing. At all. In WoW, you start off weak, as it shows you the basic abilities and ways of playing your class and race. It doesn't give you a set off about ten abilities and throw you straight into the game saying "oh this does this" which by your post, it seems GW does.

And if you played WoW for 2 months without finding any of the amazing questlines at low level, you haven't played in Cataclysm.
"Rise of the Defias Brotherhood" questline is amazing, complex and keeps you interested to the end, making use of the phasing technology that helps advance the story. You have in Northrend, the questline where you pose as a ghoul in order to infiltrate the Scourge, doing many comedic fun quests with a stunning finale. The time quests where you play as Arthas during his ascension to becoming the lich king. The Wrath Gate questline. Arthas' heart questline. The Harrison Jones questlines, pretty much all of Twilight Highlands quests. The Gilneas and Isle of Kezan questlines. The Forsaken starting questline with the young forsaken girl. The Teron Gorefiend questline in Outlands.
I could go on but it would end up as a wall of text. You state there are no good questlines? Actually do the quests in catalysm, Outlands, WOTLK and the revamped vanilla gameplay. Because if you say that it's all grind in WoW you clearly have not played enough WoW.

I don't play Guild Wars because it doesn't interest me in any way or form. The Old Republic does. WoW does. LOTRO does. Everquest 2 did. I tried these games (Not LOTRO, it never finished downloading patches) And I'm going to play TOR. I don't have to play games that don't interest me, nor does anyone.

Most people can reach 85 in WoW in a few weeks too, that's if they play quite a lot. Others take more time so they can enjoy the quests and dungeons. They can then get stuck into the BG battles, the open world PVP battles: Tol'Barad and Wintergrasp. The tons of dungeons and heroics. The raids. The heroic raids. The seasonal events. There is no point going on about end game because I can simply bring up vanilla end game, which was arguably the best end game in any MMO. (:3 C'thun) You can bring up your end game and argue that is the best.

And saying "most WoW fans" is stupid. So you asked the entire 11.2 million people playing WoW these questions, and asked if you represented them? Your just pulling numbers out of your arse and stating them as fact which is actually your opinion.
 
There is plenty of progression in GW, it just isnt a meaningless number on the screen.

But for all you level up fans, GW2 will have 80 levels, without an exponential EXP increase per level (flat leveling curve - each level will take the same amount of time to achieve).

And if you played WoW for 2 months without finding any of the amazing questlines at low level, you haven't played in Cataclysm.

Well no, I played it when I bought WoW + TBC. Though other MMOs didnt take 2 or 3 Xpacks to become good.
 
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There is plenty of progression in GW, it just isnt a meaningless number on the screen.

But for all you level up fans, GW2 will have 80 levels, without an exponential EXP increase per level (flat leveling curve - each level will take the same amount of time to achieve).



Well no, I played it when I bought WoW + TBC.

Aha, so you cannot judge the game in its current state due to it having been revamped massively and had 15 levels worth of content added after TBC?

And meaningless number? Levels scale up your abilities power, and your stats. It determines how close to endgame you are and how powerful you are. That isn't meaningless. And you are just trying to promote a game you know VERY little about. While me and latex (however moronic he is) are trying to tell you that your opinion isn't a reasonable basis for fact.
 
And saying "most WoW fans" is stupid. So you asked the entire 11.2 million people playing WoW these questions, and asked if you represented them? Your just pulling numbers out of your arse and stating them as fact which is actually your opinion.

Its not stupid, and it is provable by statistics.

*MOST* would be a minimum of 50.1%.

If 50.1% of WoW subscribers had actually bought and played any of the other MMOs (lets say Lotro / DDO / AoC), then all of those games should have sold at least half the number of copies as WoW's subscriber base.

If WoW has 12 million subscribers, and most other MMOs such as DDO have only had around 1 million sales, then most WoW players (actually over 90% of them) obviously cant even have tried the other MMOs out there.

Unlike me who has bought and tried every single one and finding WoW to be the worst of the lot.
 
Aha, so you cannot judge the game in its current state due to it having been revamped massively and had 15 levels worth of content added after TBC?

And meaningless number? Levels scale up your abilities power, and your stats. It determines how close to endgame you are and how powerful you are. That isn't meaningless. And you are just trying to promote a game you know VERY little about. While me and latex (however moronic he is) are trying to tell you that your opinion isn't a reasonable basis for fact.

Levels are pointless. End game is pointless. 85 levels is pointless. I would much rather play a game where every part of it feels as good as playing the end game in WoW (which GW actually does).

None of those things make a good game.

In fact the only role that levels will play in GW2 is for 'level up fans' to watch a 'meaningless number' increase on their screen.

DDO's and GWs 20 level maximum is fully balanced, and endgame is not based on what level you are. In GW endgame is based on completing the game and reaching those dungeons, as well as finding the skills you need, and having the ability to play them rather than just a level number on your character.

DDO is mostly based on gear. Being level 20 is useless without the right gear (unlike GW1 which is entirely gear + grind independant), but finding the gear you need in DDO to be able to play the end game content is easy peasy.

BTW what use would the extra 15 levels in WoW be to me if my characters were still level 1-5? I wouldnt even have access to that content until after I've had to grind through all the boring stuff.
 
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Levels are pointless. End game is pointless. 85 levels is pointless.

None of those things make a good game.
You were the first to mention end game and levels, so don't you dare try and say that they are pointless as if you mention them you clearly care about them.
And End-Game is not pointless, nor is levelling. Levelling is basically a measure of your progression towards End-Game, and End-Game is basically anything you do at the end of the game, thus a fun end game shows a well designed game with things to do. A boring end game shows a game that was designed purely about levelling. If end game was pointless it would just be endless amounts of questing and levelling. If levelling was pointless then it would just be endless questing and killing with no measurable progression and no ultimate aim. That, would be a very, very poor game.
 
You were the first to mention end game and levels, so don't you dare try and say that they are pointless as if you mention them you clearly care about them.
And End-Game is not pointless, nor is levelling. Levelling is basically a measure of your progression towards End-Game, and End-Game is basically anything you do at the end of the game, thus a fun end game shows a well designed game with things to do. A boring end game shows a game that was designed purely about levelling. If end game was pointless it would just be endless amounts of questing and levelling. If levelling was pointless then it would just be endless questing and killing with no measurable progression and no ultimate aim. That, would be a very, very poor game.

Your experience is based entirely on one games model - WoW. You have never experienced a game that goes beyond the traditional cookie cutter MMO model of 'Grind grind and more grind before you can get to the fun stuff'.

End game is meaningless if it is the only thing good about a game like WoW, and I have to waste several months of grinding to get to it. If levels 1-85 arent enjoyable, and only the end game is, then yes that end game is pointless because I will never get to it before getting bored of and quitting the game.

GW1 / GW2 have no end game because the *ENTIRE GAME* is the end game. After you play through the story line, you are completely free to go back and play your favorite areas now scaled up to your level. You are free to enter and play whichever dungeon / quest that you enjoy the most. You are free to go into PVP if you want to. You are free to create your own endgame and play the content that you actually enjoy, which is 100% of the game, not just 10% of it that you unlock right at the end like you do in WoW.

With GW I can log in absolutely whenever I want, and play absolutely whatever I want with no need to pay fees, or grind any content other than going through the story mode once on each character.

Increasingly more and more people are stepping away from the traditional WoW model because they in fact hate it. WoW has 12 million subscribers only because as this thread shows, they are stubborn about other games that they have never even played, stubborn about different payment methods that actually enable people to log in and play their game anytime they want without paying, and stubborn about anything that is new and different to WoW, even when they havnt tried it.

The traditional MMO model that WoW uses is a pure joke to me, as is any game that copies or uses the same type of gameplay that is fully designed to keep you 'grinding' for as long as possible, while sucking money out of every players bank accounts via the fees.
 
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A quick summary that I can give as a conclusion regarding the ever ongoing MMO debate:

Bhavv:

Has played:

Guild Wars - 6 years (2 years hardcore, 4 years very casually)
DDO - around 18-24 months
Maplestory - 1 year
Lotro - 6-8 months
AoC - about 2-3 months
WoW - about 2 months
Perfect world international - a few weeks
Mythos Online - a few weeks.

And in fact the top 5 games there are ranked exactly in the order that I enjoyed them.

Most (maybe 90%) of WoW subscribers:

- Have only played WoW (maybe everquest and whatever else before it).

- Never purchased, tried or even supported other MMOs (statistically evident by the sales figures of any other game VS WoW subscribers).

- Conclude that 'WoW is the best because it has 12 million subscribers that enjoy the game', and 'FTP games are all automatically terrible and are destroying the genre when we have never even played them'.

- Being more than generous, around 10 million of those WoW subscribers havnt tried the other MMOs on the market, as none of them except Guild Wars (oh and Aion) have anywhere near 2 million sales, the majority of which are purchases by people who are no longer playing nor subscribed to WoW.
 
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