What you think about Israel?

[boxman2000]

Ok, tomorrow, i am going to come and squat in your lounge. Happy? Once i am there, i am going to barricade the room and you are not allowed in. That ok? You might disagree with me, but i really don't care. Your lounge is mine now, tough luck. My friends all agree it is mine.

As I said, both sides need to take some of the blame.

The scenario is that squatters were living in a house, the landlord sent a bunch of people to clear them out in exchange for that house being theirs to live in. Unfortunately they didn't clear all the squatters out and those left behind brought in other mates and are banding on about their rights.

Oh, and these squatters were told they could sit in the corner of the lounge if they kept quiet but they just keep insisting on swiping the remote and changing the channel!

 

[zoomee]

not to mention they've started taking over other parts of the house!

 

[Diesel]

I have great admiration for the way Israel has stood fast in the face of over 60 years of Arab aggression.

I believe the Palestinian situation is a product of Israel's paranoia but also that they have been used as pawns by surrounding Arab states who could do much to end the Palestinians plight if they weren't so interested in using it to gain political capital.

 

[Castiel]

Murdoch isn't Jewish....

Quite, neither is he a Zionist. He is on record as stating he is a Protestant Christian, goes to Church most Sundays and hasn't felt the need to convert to his wife's Catholicism.

However, according to Talmudic law he is a Jew because his Mother was a Jew, this and the stance of some of his news outlets gives people the impression he is a Zionist Jew, that his empire also includes publications that have been critical of Israel and he also owns the largest global Publisher of Bibles seems lost on them.

 

[Castiel]

As I said, both sides need to take some of the blame.

The scenario is that squatters were living in a house, the landlord sent a bunch of people to clear them out in exchange for that house being theirs to live in. Unfortunately they didn't clear all the squatters out and those left behind brought in other mates and are banding on about their rights.

Oh, and these squatters were told they could sit in the corner of the lounge if they kept quiet but they just keep insisting on swiping the remote and changing the channel!

Who exactly are the squatters and the landlord in this analogy? It seems more that the squatters told the landlord to sit in the corner of the lounge and be quiet.

 

[boxman2000]

Who exactly are the squatters and the landlord in this analogy? It seems more that the squatters told the landlord to sit in the corner of the lounge and be quiet.

Squatters are Palestinians
Landlord is God

 

[Gackt]

The point is that no other nation in history has gone through as much persicution as the Jew but still exists this day........ that in itself (if all facts are logically considered) is evidence that God exists.

Lolwut.

On topic;

Israel was always going to cause problems, they took land away from other people and created their own new state in the stead of it. That was always going to cause problems. Not only that, but the treatment of the surrounding Arabs/Palestinians is shameful for a people who moan about how they've been persecuted, yet are happy to do it now.

I also don't particularly like how the US is funding them as if it's their own little private bit of middle-eastern real estate.

My knowledge is limited, and reading some of the posts in this thread have been enlightening (while others have just been lolworthy (see above)) but I can't really think of a morally justifiable reason why Israel exists in the way it does today.

 

[Castiel]

Squatters are Palestinians
Landlord is God

God has no need of Land. If there is even a God to begin with.

The Palestinians are not squatters, they were born and live in that land and have done for millennia. I think you need to take a more objective, real world view of the situation rather than relying on "it's the promised land" rhetoric as that will only undermine your opinion.

Even if we accept biblical prophecy as valid, it is highly questionable as to where the promised land was, or even if it was a tangible thing to begin with or a promise of grace by God.....

 

[zoomee]

I forgot to mention - The West (i.e. USA) mainly supports it (Israel) due to the evangelical view (which isn't untrue when compared to other religious scriptures) - That Jesus will return when the state of Israel is fully established.

Those who think that Israel is supported by the USA for a strategic worldly advantage need to look into the ties the jewish faith has with the evangelical christians

Also a point to note is that the name Israel - is the name given to Jacob (pbuh) from whom the jews have descended. Hence why in the qu'ran they are referred to as Ben-E-Israel - Children of Israel. The state of Israel never used to exist until recently - (According to scripture) The jewish people remained in the wilderness whilst Moses was trying to lead them into Israel. God promised them the land ONLY IF they took the initiative to fight for it. They never did (instead insisted that Moses goes and 'fights with his lord!", hence why they never got their 'promised land'. In fact Moses died outside of Jerusalem - The jewish people never made it into Jerusalem to have that 'god given right' they lay claim to.

One thing's for sure - Check their own scripture where it says They will NEVER have their own land. Its the main reason why orthodox jews argue with the zionists.

 

[boxman2000]

My knowledge is limited[/B]

Well you've summed it up in a nutshell.

Both sides would claim a stake on the land, certainly the Jew on religious grounds, probably Muslims as well although I don't know the Koran and their religion enough to say for sure.

So your involvement in this discussion is a bit limited by the fact you would not ever see either sides religious point of view.

Even if we accept biblical prophecy as valid, it is highly questionable as to where the promised land was, or even if it was a tangible thing to begin with or a promise of grace by God.....

Not really, read Genesis and the account of Abraham. The promise was theirs but they didn't take it fully as they did not slaughter those inhabiting in the land at that time........... which leads neatly onto the point that yes there were others dwelling in the land beforehand.

And oddly enough we arrive back at the same issue that polititians have argued at........... the Jews state that God gave them the land, the Muslims state they were there first (in one form or another). Muslims would state they don't acknowledge the 'God of Abraham' and the Jew wouldn't acknowledge the Muslim's point of view.

Rock, meet Mr Hard Place!

 

[Gackt]

Well you've summed it up in a nutshell.

Both sides would claim a stake on the land, certainly the Jew on religious grounds, probably Muslims as well although I don't know the Koran and their religion enough to say for sure.

So your involvement in this discussion is a bit limited by the fact you would not ever see either sides religious point of view.

My limited knowledge refers to the ACTUAL historical events that REALLY happened, along with other political and social issues. Not using some unverifiable, ancient texts to support my theories and claims, which ironically is part of the "deep-root" of the issue. My post was making a point as to how ridiculous you sounded by asserting that because Jews have been persecuted, and survived, then it "logically" proves that God exists.

I am infact well knowledged as to the religious claims made by the many different groups, thanks.

 

[zoomee]

Problem is ACTUAL historical events that REALLY happened are far and few between. The winners write the history books so we will not know the truth from books written by man.

For me, This is where the qu'ran explains it all and in quite depth (in fact MOST of the qu'ran tells us about how the jews used to live, the problems they caused, and how they re-acted to God's commands). The Qu'ran is (in my opinion) not written by ANY man - read the translation and you will know why I say this.

 

[Strife212]

Muslims would state they don't acknowledge the 'God of Abraham' and the Jew wouldn't acknowledge the Muslim's point of view.

Allah is The God of Abraham...

 

[Al Vallario]

Problem is ACTUAL historical events that REALLY happened are far and few between. The winners write the history books so we will not know the truth from books written by man.

Not to derail the thread, but do you happen to believe in 9/11 conspiracy theories by any chance?

You strike me as someone who holds very stereotypical views on these issues.

 

[bazaarboy]

here's my two-penneth:

The formation of Israel after WW2 where it is now was a big mistake.
The idea that Jews had a right to a homeland is as flawed as any of the past lost civilisations - are the Italians the rightful owners of most of Europe, the Greeks too, Brits can re-stake a claim Northern America?

Civilisations, cultures, empires come and go. The area now known as Israel does not belong to the Jews, so naturally the Palestinians are unhappy.

 

[BunnyKillBot]

You appear to have a rather cute, rather naïve understanding of the sequence of events that led to the formation of the state of Israel.

You do realise the analogy you provided is completely and utterly inapplicable?

No i do not, and merely stating that something is not applicable hardly compels me to your argument. Do i need to add that my great-grandmother actually lived in his house a century ago, she even buried a tooth in the garden. Hows about you explain yourself rather than giving a verbal rolleyes.

So, boxman, just to confirm, at 9am tomorrow sharp i will be arriving at the place of yours, and taking over control of your lounge and the contents there within. I suggest you remove anything of value, and anything not of value sentimental or otherwise will be destroyed. It is also worth noting that during my stay, i will of course need to eat, so i will be taking over the kitchen as well. Later, in the course of my analogy, i may consider giving you back the kitchen if you let me keep the lounge, which i stole from you. Okay? We happy?

the Jews state that God gave them the land, the Muslims state they were there first

Biblically speaking, the jews were and still are in exile from the promised land. The establishment of modern day israel is the political fulfilment of the promised return to the promised land. God did not bring it about, the trinitarian aspects of the people, military and politics did.

 

[Castiel]

Well you've summed it up in a nutshell.

Both sides would claim a stake on the land, certainly the Jew on religious grounds, probably Muslims as well although I don't know the Koran and their religion enough to say for sure.

So your involvement in this discussion is a bit limited by the fact you would not ever see either sides religious point of view.



Not really, read Genesis and the account of Abraham. The promise was theirs but they didn't take it fully as they did not slaughter those inhabiting in the land at that time........... which leads neatly onto the point that yes there were others dwelling in the land beforehand.

And oddly enough we arrive back at the same issue that polititians have argued at........... the Jews state that God gave them the land, the Muslims state they were there first (in one form or another). Muslims would state they don't acknowledge the 'God of Abraham' and the Jew wouldn't acknowledge the Muslim's point of view.


Rock, meet Mr Hard Place!

Yes Really.

Genesis is considered to be allegorical in many of it's scriptures, to use it as a validation of statehood in the modern world is futile and pointless and only undermines your argument.


You have only shown that you are as guilty of having limited knowledge as Gackt,

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic religions, they ALL worship the same GOD.

 

[Al Vallario]

No i do not, and merely stating that something is not applicable hardly compels me to your argument. Hows about you explain yourself rather than giving a verbal rolleyes.

Interesting. I don't feel I have any particular need to explain myself.

I would, however, urge you to exercise a little more caution when discussing issues such as these. You're using what amount to straw man techniques, constructing an analogy that even you must understand is a vast oversimplification and misrepresentation of what was an extremely complex and controversial sequence of events, and presenting it in a framed fashion in an attempt to stir moral indignation.

It's a fruitless exercise. Only in your fanciful imagination is Israel completely in the wrong and the palestinian people completely in the right.

 

[RDM]

Quite, neither is he a Zionist. He is on record as stating he is a Protestant Christian, goes to Church most Sundays and hasn't felt the need to convert to his wife's Catholicism.

However, according to Talmudic law he is a Jew because his Mother was a Jew, this and the stance of some of his news outlets gives people the impression he is a Zionist Jew, that his empire also includes publications that have been critical of Israel and he also owns the largest global Publisher of Bibles seems lost on them.

His mother wasn't jewish either, neither was his grandmother (De Lancy Forth not being a renowned Jewish name. ). There are some sources that state his great grandmother was Jewish but they all seem to have a certain agenda if you know what I mean.

 

[BunnyKillBot]

Interesting. I don't feel I have any particular need to explain myself.

I would, however, urge you to exercise a little more caution when discussing issues such as these. You're using what amount to straw man techniques, constructing an analogy that even you must understand is a vast oversimplification and misrepresentation of what was an extremely complex and controversial sequence of events, and presenting it in a framed fashion in an attempt to stir moral indignation.

It's a fruitless exercise. Only in your fanciful imagination is Israel completely in the wrong and the palestinian people completely in the right.

Noted and discarded. If you cant be bothered to explain how it doesn't fit, i cant be bothered to take notice of you. kthxbye.