It doesn't fit because the formation of Israel is much more complicated than "They took our land!". Evangelion probably did the best post a while back going over the formation of Israel using Arab sources to at least try and reduce pro-Israeli bias and the whole thing was a mess with blame being on all sides.
What you think about Israel?
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It doesn't fit because the formation of Israel is much more complicated than "They took our land!". Evangelion probably did the best post a while back going over the formation of Israel using Arab sources to at least try and reduce pro-Israeli bias and the whole thing was a mess with blame being on all sides.
Soldato
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Well it isn't too difficult to find physical proof of a lot of biblical texts, let alone historical.
I am sure you are well versed in many things and far clever than I, but simply stating that the bible is unverifiable (sweeping statement so I'm assuming you mean the WHOLE thing) then it isn't really possible to have a discussion with someone who doesn't accept historical facts.
Again, we go back to the point that the Jewish argument is that the land was given to them....... that is their religious belief and whether we believe in their God or not, those are the facts they hold to.
Also, this isn't something they've just decided overnight, their ancient texts state this land is theirs, verified and supported by (at least) BC 200 Dead Sea Scrolls. But again that is irrelivant I suppose.
It is biblical prophecy that the Jews will build a temple again as the temple will at some point be defiled afterwards (Matthew 24), the point here is that the temple was still standing at the time Jesus spoke those words, less than 40 years later it was flattened - the temple is going to be rebuilt at some point in which case the Jews will still have hold on part of Jerusalem in the future at least.
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His mother wasn't jewish either, neither was his grandmother (De Lancy Forth not being a renowned Jewish name.). There are some sources that state his great grandmother was Jewish but they all seem to have a certain agenda if you know what I mean.
You learn something everyday, I was under the impression she was from a maternal Jewish family.
Not that it matters in reality whether he was Jewish or not, it seems to be only an issue among anti-semites and White supremacists.
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what the heck are you on about mate?
Your argument completely falls down when you get to the part where the Jews claiming the land to be theirs is based on their religious beliefs.
It seems your whole argument is based on religious beliefs, which you'd have to subscribe to to believe it's "proof" or a reason. It kinda fits in with what BunnyKillBot's been saying.
It's very similar to me telling you that "god has told me that your house is actually supposed to be my house, they are my beliefs and they are true, fact" and using that as a reason to claim ownership of your house.
Understandably you'd have none of it regardless of what I told you my beliefs were, because you don't believe in it. It's for this very reason that I believe a country should never be under religious rule, so as to let the people of the country be free to follow any religion the choose as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others.
It seems to matter to zoomee. But then his argument is somewhat weaker if he cannot fall back on the old zionist conspiracy controlling the media.
I have no problem with the Jews as a people. Any Jews I have met/know are lovely people no different to anyone else.
I also have a lot of respect for Israel and how they defend themselves in difficult, verging on impossible circumstances, in a world of surrender where you are expected to roll over and bare your belly to unreasonable demands they defend their country with pride and a big ******* tank, good on them. (now I will leave the thread, because I cannot be bothered to argue about Israel for the rest of the evening.)
Soldato
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If you can't see why it doesn't fit without me having to explain it to you, it's not worth my time explaining to you.
Here we go again RDM. 
- Dismissing my input as mad conspiracies lol. Typical.
My points about Murdoch are valid - look into it and investigate yourselves (Newscorp). I've given evidence of this above - Note that Israel is 'suffering' protests left right and centre - The regime controlling it using force to 'surpress' the uprising - YET - How much has the mainstream media (Main one being newscorp) picked up on this? - My point is made - no conspiracy about it. Yet we here all the time about this Arab country or that Arab country blah blah.
We all know the jewish lobby groups in the UK are the largest lobbyists of government. You don't hear about any Palestinian Friends of Labour or Palestinian Friends of Conservative groups either do you? Yet the Israel Friends of Conservatives are funnily enough the conservative largest 'donators' - Point made again.
I posted earlier last month about David Cameron recently stepping down from being a member of the JDL - Jewish Defence League - A HIGHLY racist organisation hellbent on evicting anyone NON-jewish from Israel - yet you amongst the typical others (jewish maybe? lol) dismiss it as a laugh and a joke, and pffft 'that ain't news'.
In the grand scheme of things - Theres a reason why the jews are disliked and were persecuted. Delve into it yourselves and you will find out. Peace out.
- Dismissing my input as mad conspiracies lol. Typical.My points about Murdoch are valid - look into it and investigate yourselves (Newscorp). I've given evidence of this above - Note that Israel is 'suffering' protests left right and centre - The regime controlling it using force to 'surpress' the uprising - YET - How much has the mainstream media (Main one being newscorp) picked up on this? - My point is made - no conspiracy about it. Yet we here all the time about this Arab country or that Arab country blah blah.
We all know the jewish lobby groups in the UK are the largest lobbyists of government. You don't hear about any Palestinian Friends of Labour or Palestinian Friends of Conservative groups either do you? Yet the Israel Friends of Conservatives are funnily enough the conservative largest 'donators' - Point made again.
I posted earlier last month about David Cameron recently stepping down from being a member of the JDL - Jewish Defence League - A HIGHLY racist organisation hellbent on evicting anyone NON-jewish from Israel - yet you amongst the typical others (jewish maybe? lol) dismiss it as a laugh and a joke, and pffft 'that ain't news'.
In the grand scheme of things - Theres a reason why the jews are disliked and were persecuted. Delve into it yourselves and you will find out. Peace out.
Soldato
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No it isn't. It's suffering protests from vested interests in the Arab world and fringe left-wing groups in the Western world.
You're either delusional or your derision of the mainstream media extends to ignoring it completely if you think most of the world's media has a pro-Israel bias. You're also delusional if you think News Corp being a large international media organisation means they have some kind of monopoly on reporting. In the UK, the BBC has far more influence over broadcast media than News Corp, and they are notoriously anti-Israel.
It's the Conservative Friends of Israel, I think you'll find, and by what metric are you calling them "the largest lobbyists of government"? Your claim about the group being the largest donor to the Conservative Party is categorically false. Do you just make this stuff up?
There's my answer, I suppose. David Cameron, a member of the Jewish Defense League? Talk about making up facts to suit your agenda...
Here we go again RDM.
The concern would be that if you are getting your news from the same incorrect sources that are prepetuating the "Murdoch is a Jew" lie then why am I to believe the rest of what you are saying?
Other than him being Jewish you mean?
The BBC are quite happy to report when Israel do anything, the problem you have is that you believe any viewpoint to be pro-Israeli if they do not conform to your heavily biased world view. Do the Guardian, BBC and Independant no longer count as mainstream media? As for the tabloids, they just don't care because the average man in the street doesn't care.
Want to provide some proof on "Israel Friends of Conservatives" (I assume you mean Conservative Friends of Israel?) being the party's largest donor?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...pcnFZbXBvN3lRcUE&hl=en&authkey=CM2egqgB#gid=0
That lists the top 50 in 2010, no sign of CFI...
Is this yet another "fact" you have been given to you from pro-palestinian sources?
This would be the JDL that makes every PM a member if they ask for it or not? And no, I am not Jewish.
What I have found out is that it seems to stem from the fact that gullible fools believe propoganda about them when they are used as a scapegoat for others...
So it is pure coincidence then that the crusades ('Christians') who were obsessed with the holy land were European? All while the black or non European Christians were not concerned at all with reclaiming Jerusalem, infact, many of them were also butchered at the hands of the crusaders!! The Zionists ('Jews') who were also obsessed with the holy land also happen to be Europeans? All the while, you have orthodox Israelite Jews strongly opposing Israel and crying out that the Jewish faith has been hijacked, yet it is falling on deaf ears.
I won't give it a rest because I believe it to be true.
You cannot put events down to pure chance and coincidence. Those who are knowledgeable in the Abrahamic faiths such as yourself, know that the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah. This is a massive factor if we want to try and understand why the Zionists would ONLY settle for Jerusalem as their homeland, and nowhere else. Many Israelite Jews are starting to be deceived by the state of Israel and they are starting to move there, I should also add that many Jews recognise it for what it is, an imposter.
Jews against Zionism. I looked into them once. Their main argument is that their homeland can only be given to them by God or something. At least that's what I took away from what I looked into.
As well as everything that Israel has done and is doing, completely violates Gods laws.
I like Israel and will support them over any Arab country.
Going through the history, they do actually have the right to be there.
In addition when Jordan was created, everything to the West was supposed to be Israel, and it was Jordan (for the Arabs) to the East.
Obviously they wanted to have their cake and eat it, so thats why israel has lost so much land to the West side of the River Jordan.
In theory, there shouldnt be any Palestinians there, they should have all moved when it was partitioned, as it was Jordan that was created specifically for them.
Talk about ungrateful and greedy. (Palestinians/Jordanese)
At least the Israelis are solid though. Any Arab country that does try it on in a major act of war will be obliterated from the map.
I dont agree with the wall though, thats a bit much and is quite ugly.
They should continue with an eye for an eye policy, where any rockets that are directed into Israel are met with rockets back.
Its only fair. Until the morons stop with the rockets and everyone can calm down. Not easy though in the crazy heat. Probably half the reason why everyone over there is so aggro.
Going through the history, they do actually have the right to be there.
In addition when Jordan was created, everything to the West was supposed to be Israel, and it was Jordan (for the Arabs) to the East.
Obviously they wanted to have their cake and eat it, so thats why israel has lost so much land to the West side of the River Jordan.
In theory, there shouldnt be any Palestinians there, they should have all moved when it was partitioned, as it was Jordan that was created specifically for them.
Talk about ungrateful and greedy. (Palestinians/Jordanese)
At least the Israelis are solid though. Any Arab country that does try it on in a major act of war will be obliterated from the map.
I dont agree with the wall though, thats a bit much and is quite ugly.
They should continue with an eye for an eye policy, where any rockets that are directed into Israel are met with rockets back.
Its only fair. Until the morons stop with the rockets and everyone can calm down. Not easy though in the crazy heat. Probably half the reason why everyone over there is so aggro.
I'll keep this as simple as possible.
Very few of the crusaders had any kind of obsession with Jerusalem, you need to research using better literature. What the Crusaders where obsessed with was land, wealth and conquest, all things that Outremer offered in abundance.
It was initially at the behest of the Byzantine Emperor to Pope Urban II that the First Crusade was begun, initially to force the Seljuk Turks out of Syria and Anatolia, unfortunately for Alexios Komnenous he didn't consider the Normans appetite for conquest and Empire building or Pope Urban II's need to consolidate his position as Pope against the Antipope Clement III.
The conquest of Jerusalem was initially a side issue to free the Christians from Islamic Rule, only when the Norman commander Bohemond founded the Principality of Antioch and decided to entrench his position did the other Crusaders decide that the Capture of Jerusalem was a prime concern, and that was for Conquest and the riches that city would provide.
Also you seem to be forgetting the the Muslims under Caliph Umar conquered Jerusalem to begin with in 637AD wresting it from the Byzantine Empire.
So in fact you are talking a lot of unsubstantiated nonsense that simply is not supported by historical record.
You are still utterly wrong however. It is members of the Abrahamic Faiths that hold Jerusalem significant, not Europeans in general and certainly not Europeans in isolation, in fact over the centuries it is the Muslims who have bleated on about Jerusalem and it's importance far more than the European Nations who frankly couldn't care less as long as whoever occupies it doesn't effect them directly. Considering the amount of pressure upon Israel from European Nations in regard to it's settler programs in Jerusalem what you are stating is patently contrary to the evidence.
You seem not to understand the significant differences between Rabbinic Judaism's differing movements. You are referring to Ultra Nationalists and Zionists who only make up a minority portion of Israel and even smaller portion of the Global population of Jews who for the most part are NOT Zionists, in fact increasingly they are secular or members of various liberal reform movements.
There is no doubt that Jews feel that Israel is their homeland, that is a given, but to state that Europeans are obsessed with Jerusalem, when it is clear that all the Abrahamic Religions place significant importance on Jerusalem is simply wrong. In fact Jews place more significance on Jerusalem than either Muslims or Christian, who place significant importance on Mecca and Rome respectively.
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here is my very limited old testament knowledge.
didn't Abraham have 2 sons, Issac and Ishmael?
Issac is regarded as the father of the jews,
Ishmael is regarded as the father of the muslims
and they both recognise Abraham as the founding father, (if you know what i mean)
how ?
Simplistically speaking that is about it. Ishmael is seen as the forefather of Mohammed. Judaism see Ishmael as wicked and believe that Isaac is the true heir to Abraham.
Christians revere Isaac over Ishmael and unlike the Jews who believe Ishmael was repentant, the Christians do not make any distinction.