Serving a Section 21 notice to quit,

edscdk · 15 Sep 2011 at 00:59

Dunks said:
The guy sounds like a bit of a pillock putting up a response like that considering all the slack you've cut him!

I was amazed at his response,

Had he apologised and promised to sort the rent out I'd have let him off as normal

He also pays 500 a month but the going rate for a 2 bed is 700 in our area, so he is really messed up sine he will not even get a 1 bed flat for 500

edscdk · 15 Sep 2011 at 01:03

.Lethal said:
Indeed but to be honest he shouldn't have allowed this in the first place. Alarm bells would have been ringing a long time ago if it was me (or many others I hope).

I knew the guy before he rented the house so I felt I should help him out..

So I broke two rules, don't rent to a friend and go via an agent

Luckily for me the money is no issue (well i aint rich but a few k either way will not break the bank) it's on principal now.

.Lethal · 15 Sep 2011 at 01:06

edscdk said:
I knew the guy before he rented the house so I felt I should help him out..

So I broke two rules, don't rent to a friend and go via an agent

Luckily for me the money is no issue (well i aint rich but a few k either way will not break the bank) it's on principal now.

I guess it's one of those lessons in life you learn not to do again. I can see how you would want to help a friend.

You really don't have to go through an agency, I think If I was you I would make sure I understand all the rules that goes with renting a place out, and just do the proper checks (references, stable job etc) in the future. But that's my own opinion, no doubt there are positives to going through an agent.

Amnesia · 15 Sep 2011 at 01:15

dowie said:
What if you intend to occupy the property yourself - after you've given him 2 months notice with the section 21 notice he's then a squatter surely and as a protected intended occupier you'd be able to simply get an oath and then evict them?

Squatter or tenant, you cannot remove them yourself.
You have to go through the courts and the court bailiffs will do the work...or in squatters cases the police can come and arrest them if they haven't moved out in the time given.

RopAyy · 15 Sep 2011 at 01:16

dowie said:
How come? I'm not explicitly saying you don't but in what situations could he have PIO status then? I'm interested as I might rent my flat out for a year if I go to do a masters and I was assuming that, if squatted, I'd be a protected intended occupier when wanting to re-occupy the flat myself?

I think the downfall is that squatters actually get rights!

I think if you intend on taking it back yourself you still have to either use the courts or while the current sqauter is out you can try a peaceful take back of your property and re occupy it!

Im not sure on what the rights are in regards to squatters and at what point a tennant becomes a sqautter. Id imagine the date on which your section to quit notice expires the tenant is then classed as a squatter in which case in under 21 days of a squatter taking your place then there is a fast track eviction order, i think Interim possession order.
Sounds like a tenant becoming a squatter may be a grey area..... You'd have to speak to someone who is in the business and clued up!

dowie · 15 Sep 2011 at 01:20

Amnesia said:
Squatter or tenant, you cannot remove them yourself.
You have to go through the courts and the court bailiffs will do the work...or in squatters cases the police can come and arrest them if they haven't moved out in the time given.

That's not true re: squatters in the case of displaced residential occupier or protected intended occupier.

i.e. someone squats your house when you're away on holiday - you're a DRO and can simply remove them/call the police etc...

I was hoping someone who actually knows the law in this area could clarify the situations where PIO status would apply?

Amnesia · 15 Sep 2011 at 01:35

I did say you can call the police but i doubt very much you can physically remove them yourself

A quick google says

A displaced residential occupier, a protected intending occupier or a person acting on their behalf can use reasonable force to secure entry to the property.

However, with regards to a protected intending occupier or a person acting on their behalf before entry can be secured, they must obtain a written declaration from a commissioner of oaths (usually certain more senior solicitors). Once this has been obtained then entry can be gained. If the squatters refuse to leave then they commit an offence and the police should be called to deal with the matter.

Any person using excessive force could leave themselves open to criminal and civil proceedings.

Outside the above provisions, a landlord/owner etc. cannot force entry into property where there are squatters whilst someone is inside. However, they can get a court order fairly easily and deal with the matter by that means.

dowie · 15 Sep 2011 at 02:09

Yes that is exactly what I was getting at..... DRO and PIO status - you can used reasonable force to secure the property - DRO can simply do that, PIO needs an oath from a solicitor - neither actually require a court order as you indicated earlier - however that doesn't answer my question...

My question was whether a PIO status could apply after a section 21 notice has been served - I've since googled for an answer and it seems it doesn't as the tennant doesn't become a squatter after the section 21 notice.

Amnesia · 15 Sep 2011 at 02:23

No you just changed the situation. we were discussing a tenant who had been given a 2 month eviction notice and you said he becomes a squatter. i was pointing out that if he had been living there legally that you could not come in and remove him by force and you would need a court order.

dowie · 15 Sep 2011 at 05:15

Amnesia said:
No you just changed the situation. we were discussing a tenant who had been given a 2 month eviction notice and you said he becomes a squatter. i was pointing out that if he had been living there legally that you could not come in and remove him by force and you would need a court order.

I've not changed anything - I was asking whether he becomes a squatter - it seems that he doesn't.

Squatter or tenant, you cannot remove them yourself.

This is incorrect in some cases

If he were a squatter and you were a DRO or PIO then you can use reasonable force, you can also call the police.

Which is why I wanted to clarify whether this could apply in these circumstances after a section 21 notice. i.e. does the tennant then become a squatter if he stays in the property after the notice has been served - searching elsewhere reveals that he doesn't - which answers my question.

MrMoonX · 15 Sep 2011 at 06:49

he doesn't become a squatter as he's a tenant and always will be payment of rent or not, you need to get a court order and then he needs to be in default of that order, you then need to go back to court to get bailiffs to get him out

prepare to take 3 months to sort this out

Brookert · 15 Sep 2011 at 07:14

call me stupid

but would you be able to sit outside the house and wait till the tenant/squatter goes out for shopping or something, then break in or get inside and get the locks changed?

edscdk · 15 Sep 2011 at 07:21

Brookert said:
call me stupid but would you be able to sit outside the house and wait till the tenant/squatter goes out for shopping or something, then break in or get inside and get the locks changed?

you gotta be careful, i htink that would get you into a load of trouble you gotta follow the correct process

Rids · 15 Sep 2011 at 07:31

Correct legal stance or not, I would find it extremely difficult to have somebody extract the urine from me the way this guy seems to be doing and not deal with it myself. Why should this even be a legal issue? You own a property, you have served a tennant two months notice that he has to leave the property, tennant hasn't left... yet if you go in and remove him from your own damn property you could get in trouble with the law? What in the name of all that is holy is that about?

edscdk · 15 Sep 2011 at 07:34

Rids said:
Correct legal stance or not, I would find it extremely difficult to have somebody extract the urine from me the way this guy seems to be doing and not deal with it myself. Why should this even be a legal issue? You own a property, you have served a tennant two months notice that he has to leave the property, tennant hasn't left... yet if you go in and remove him from your own damn property you could get in trouble with the law? What in the name of all that is holy is that about?

i served notice yesterday, stupidly assuming he would acecpt it, but from what he said he will not go and I'll have to go via the court posession process in 2 months when he is still there...

never will I help someone out money wise again (in a pay later because I can understand why you cannot pay now way)

Scania · 15 Sep 2011 at 07:46

He's seen you as a soft touch and is treating you accordingly imo.

edscdk · 15 Sep 2011 at 07:49

R420LA6X2/4MNA said:
He's seen you as a soft touch and is treating you accordingly imo.

hangs head in shame and prepares for 3 months with no rent bing paid and a trashed house to sort out at the end of it....

grumpysculler · 15 Sep 2011 at 08:13

Brookert said:
call me stupid but would you be able to sit outside the house and wait till the tenant/squatter goes out for shopping or something, then break in or get inside and get the locks changed?

Which would be an illegal eviction and get you in a whole world of pain with the Protection from Eviction Act 1977.

To enforce a section 21, as with any other notice, requires going to court. The landlord cannot end the tenancy unitlaterally without a court order.

Be really sure your notice is correct (deposit protected, dates correct, at least two months notice coinciding with rental periods) or the court will throw it out. Some reports say 70% of section 21 notices get chucked out of court because they are wrong.

With 4 months rent arrears, section 8 is quicker. They must still be 2 months in arrears both when the notice is served and at the date of the hearing for the court to rule in your favour.

Get thee to moneysavingexpert.com or landlordzone to make sure you get it right. If your tenant knows what he is doing and you don't, this could be a long and expensive process.

shoes · 15 Sep 2011 at 09:47

edscdk said:
hangs head in shame and prepares for 3 months with no rent bing paid and a trashed house to sort out at the end of it....

Does he pay rent to you all inclusive or does he cover the bills sepaeately? If the former, then cut the gas/elec/water off saying you haven't been able to pay the bills as he is four months in arrears.

Do you have a deposit from him for the property?

edscdk · 15 Sep 2011 at 09:55

shoes said:
Does he pay rent to you all inclusive or does he cover the bills sepaeately? If the former, then cut the gas/elec/water off saying you haven't been able to pay the bills as he is four months in arrears.

Do you have a deposit from him for the property?

no deposit (stupid)

he pays the bills, however virgin media is in joint names so I'll probably get stuck with that bill as well... I tried to check the balance last night but they will not speak to me as I dont know the password or other account details...

both stupid things but as we were mates at one point I never drempt it would be an issue