UK uncut NHS protection protest - Westminster bridge today 1pm.

On the flip side, it fails to balance opposing rights (such as freedom of religion against freedom from discrimination, or the rights of the majority to be protected from crime against the right of immigrant criminals to avoid deportation due to making an life here) in a satisfactory way.

Is that right?, I freely admit my knowledge of this is not extensive, but my understanding of it is that (given your example above) it does not give blanket immunity, enshrined in the law, but plenty of scope for interpretation by individual states. Hence we get all the complaints of why we don't act in certain ways but other nations do.

The problem comes when in order to deport someone you are sending them to a place where they may be tortured/killed. Now I know a lot of people wouldn't care about that for say a Terrorist, but that is where it clashes with the intractable HRA right to not be tortured...which on the whole you would say is a good thing.

Anyway, I was being slightly disingenuous with the Theresa May comment, because as usual the headlines and actual proposed policies don't marry. Though, as we know, unfortunately it is the headlines the populous in general go on and I find it laughably ironic when I hear people going on about "Bloody Human Rights" etc etc as though it is a bad thing....generally Daily Mail readers ;)
 
Is that right?, I freely admit my knowledge of this is not extensive, but my understanding of it is that (given your example above) it does not give blanket immunity, enshrined in the law, but plenty of scope for interpretation by individual states. Hence we get all the complaints of why we don't act in certain ways but other nations do.

The HRA and the ECHR are slightly different. The Human rights act is based on the European convention on human rights, but as you say, the ECHR is open to interpretation.

The issues around the interpretations we have enshrined in law via the HRA are the issue, rather than the responsibilities under the ECHR itself. (Although the ECHR has it's problems, such as having a right to own property where taxation is absolutely excluded, rather than reasonably excluded as state behaviour is in other rights)

The other problems come from the way conflicting rights are handled. For example, the B&B case around trying to force people to serve homosexuals when it was against their religious belief. There is a balance to be found between those two rights, but it was completely failed in the court cases.

The problem comes when in order to deport someone you are sending them to a place where they may be tortured/killed. Now I know a lot of people wouldn;t care about that for say a Terrorist, but that is where it clashes with the intractable HRA right to not be tortured...which on the whole you would say is a good thing.

Again, somewhat cross purposes IMO, the issue of torture isn't one that's come up much among those who want reasonable rewriting of the HRA, because as you say, it's a good thing. However, there are other aspects and conventions that are not being given due weight (such as the Dublin regulation that states clearly that asylum seekers are the responsibility of the country of entry into the EU, not the country they finally claim asylum in) that could be used to improve our handling of immigration and immigrants.

The one that causes the problem is article 8 of the HRA, which is currently being interpreted to mean that if you manage to sneak into the country and have a child before anyone notices, you are exempt from all possibility of deportation, even after criminal activities. This is one of those areas that needs reform.

Anyway, I was being slightly disingenuous with the Theresa May comment, because as usual the headlines and actual proposed policies don't marry. Though, as we know, unfortunately it is the headlines the populous in general go on and I find it laughably ironic when I hear people going on about "Bloody Human Rights" etc etc as though it is a bad thing....generally Daily Mail readers ;)

I agree, and indeed, my main objections to the HRA are more that it doesn't give the general public enough protection, rather than it gives criminals too much protection. Strengthening the protection of the general public will result in both better protection from excesses of state and mob, and better ability to ensure criminals etc are correctly dealt with.
 
Get out the water canons and rubber bullets, that will take care of these subordinates.

id say just get some sharp pointy sticks and strap them on the cars, then drive over said bridge, if the muppets want to stand in the way then let them, after all, an ambulance wont be able to reach them as they have blocked the bridge :rolleyes:
 
Perhaps if they can make a case on the bill that is actually going through parliament, rather than what they think is going through parliament, they'll get a better response.

The entire page is based on made up drivel with no bearing on reality.

Also, since when was criminal behaviour an acceptable protest to be promoting/recommending?

Will there also be lots of whinging and moaning when the police start arresting people for breaking the law as there was around the arrests for aggravated trespass at fortnum and masons?

Your really have lost the plot haven't you.
 
It might have been breaking the law. Can't say I care though. There was a few of the hooded anarchists there but the protesters made a clear distinction between both groups.

The health professionals seem to have deep concerns about this bill, with the tories somehow trying to give the impression that they have the support of the NHS.

As for the NHS suffering for the last 17 years, from personal experience from a family member in and out of hospital for the last 25, I can say that under labour government things were actually clean, and the required equipment etc. was present.

Whatever this circumcision argument is going about, I fully believe that anybody performing one non-consensually should receive a harsh custodial sentence.
 
As for the NHS suffering for the last 17 years, from personal experience from a family member in and out of hospital for the last 25, I can say that under labour government things were actually clean, and the required equipment etc. was present.

And you think that is different now?????

Good god, the amount of nonsense I hear about Conservatives did this, Labour done that.

The NHS needs to be modernised and made more efficient. The argument should not be about party politics, it should be about delivering a cost effective, efficient and excellent service within a national health system that is free at point of service. If people stopped marching about and actually engaged their brains then maybe we would actually accomplish something.
 
And you think that is different now?????

Good god, the amount of nonsense I hear about Conservatives did this, Labour done that.

The NHS needs to be modernised and made more efficient. The argument should not be about party politics, it should be about delivering a cost effective, efficient and excellent service within a national health system that is free at point of service. If people stopped marching about and actually engaged their brains then maybe we would actually accomplish something.

The NHS is already an efficient service, I'd argue in fact it should become less efficient and concentrate more on providing a better quality of service rather than an obsession with efficiency just because it's taxpayers money being used. I agree that the NHS needs to be modernised, I disagree that the government's proposals are the way to achieve that however. Modernisation does not mean regressing back to a US style, insurance based healthcare system.
 
The NHS is already an efficient service, I'd argue in fact it should become less efficient and concentrate more on providing a better quality of service rather than an obsession with efficiency just because it's taxpayers money being used. I agree that the NHS needs to be modernised, I disagree that the government's proposals are the way to achieve that however. Modernisation does not mean regressing back to a US style, insurance based healthcare system.

Efficiency doesn't or at least shouldn't imply poor service. It should be both efficient and deliver a high quality of service. The NHS is highly inefficient in many ways, not least in procurement and how the GP services are run, especially in the Capital it seems if recent news on registered patients is any indication.

Do the proposals actually amount to a US insurance system, I doubt that they do.

In any case that doesn't address the issue of why so many people are opposing anything simply because it is a Conservative/Coalition that is suggesting it, equally we saw the same irrational nonsense under labour. Forget the party politics, concentrate on the proposals and what they are meant to achieve and if there are valid and better alternatives then tell the relevant people, marching about with placards spouting party political claptrap doesn't achieve anything. Write the alternatives on the placards instead if you feel the need to march about anyway.
 
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In any case that doesn't address the issue of why so many people are opposing anything simply because it is a Conservative/Coalition that is suggesting it, equally we saw the same irrational nonsense under labour.

Maybe because people who work in the NHS are seeing complete freezes on frontline recruitment, massive bed closures, whole professions getting the shaft when they are already low paid, treatment options reduced across the board, other sectors of society not having to share the pain etc all fully sanctioned by the Tories whilst they don't actually tackle the real issues as they are to scared they will become really unpopular or are too frightened to do what is necessary.
 
... The NHS is highly inefficient in many ways, not least in procurement and how the GP services are run, especially in the Capital it seems if recent news on registered patients is any indication.
...
In any case that doesn't address the issue of why so many people are opposing anything simply because it is a Conservative/Coalition that is suggesting it, equally we saw the same irrational nonsense under labour. Forget the party politics, concentrate on the proposals and what they are meant to achieve and if there are valid and better alternatives then tell the relevant people, marching about with placards spouting party political claptrap doesn't achieve anything. Write the alternatives on the placards instead if you feel the need to march about anyway.
On the off-chance that you actually think you know what you are talking about, why don't you share?

In what way could NHS procurement be made more efficient?

What is your concern over how GP services are run . . . especially in the Capital :confused:

Frankly the big difference between your approach and what you accuse the protesters of is that you aren't even trying to do anything.


As to Xandos - once again, well done for giving a damn :)
 
On the off-chance that you actually think you know what you are talking about, why don't you share?

In what way could NHS procurement be made more efficient?

What is your concern over how GP services are run . . . especially in the Capital :confused:

Frankly the big difference between your approach and what you accuse the protesters of is that you aren't even trying to do anything.

As to Xandos - once again, well done for giving a damn :)

You might want to check your bad attitude at the door, Read the news on GP registration in the capital....

With regard to procurement, the system needs to be freed up so that it is not limited to specific suppliers who can effectively charge a premium. This would allow PCTs or the replacements for them to tender more freely and procure in a more cost effective way.

The key areas of the Bill are reasonable and I have yet to hear any specific alternatives to them, perhaps you can offer some?

http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publication...ndbills/HealthandSocialCareBill2011/index.htm


establishes an independent NHS Board to allocate resources and provide commissioning guidance
increases GPs’ powers to commission services on behalf of their patients

strengthens the role of the Care Quality Commission

develops Monitor, the body that currently regulates NHS foundation trusts, into an economic regulator to oversee aspects of access and competition in the NHS

cuts the number of health bodies to help meet the Government's commitment to cut NHS administration costs by a third, including abolishing Primary Care Trusts and Strategic Health Authorities.

Marching about with placards denouncing the Tories doesn't actually accomplish anything, save our NHS! Maybe if they offered alternatives instead of rhetoric it may be more effective, but hey, why engage your brain when you can rant about the Govt.
 
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Marching about with placards denouncing the Tories doesn't actually accomplish anything, save our NHS! Maybe if they offered alternatives instead of rhetoric it may be more effective, but hey, why engage your brain when you can rant about the Govt.

Alternatively rant on the internet about the NHS and how it does not function well and never go into politics or work in the NHS to make any attempt yourself to improve the very thing you feel so strongly about.

/devils advocate
 
Alternatively rant on the internet about the NHS and how it does not function well and never go into politics or work in the NHS to make any attempt yourself to improve the very thing you feel so strongly about.

/devils advocate

I'm not particularly ranty about the NHS, I support some local stuff with connections to the NHS as well as signing off on corporate sponsorship for several programs within the NHS, I don't feel any more personal commitment is necessary. I vote in elections for that level of input. As for politics, I do not have the mentality for it, neither would I be any good at it, working within the NHS, again I have no relevant experience in medicine or it's related fields. That shouldn't preclude me from having a valid opinion on the NHS though, should it?

I don't recall stating it doesn't function well either, only that it needs to be improved, unless you are suggesting that it is perfect and as efficient and cost effective as possible whilst giving the best level of quality service in the most effective way?

What I actually feel strongly about (although not that strongly) is the ineffective politically motivated demonstrations like the one today. Barely 2000 people turned out and without some effective alternatives to the Health Bill in question simply raising placards saying "Save Our NHS" are pointless.

I have yet to hear of anything even resembling an alternative to the proposals, let alone something worth considering, all everyone is interested in doing is calling the Conservative names....very constructive!

As a physician Maustin, maybe you can actually offer some for consideration, or at least lay out why the proposals will destroy the NHS?
 
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I ahve yet to hear of anythng even resembling an alternative to the proposals, let alone something worth considering, all everyone is interested in doing is calling the Conservative names....very constructive!

Not introducing the bill? Employing fewer managers and more floor staff? Listening to Doctors and not Politicians? Bringing back the homes that i can't for the life of me remember the name of where long term or serious patients would go before going home, being in a much better suited environment and not taking up hospital beds, meaning more space and shorter waiting lists?
 
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