The problem is the only way to sort that would be against what they are protesting for. In actual fact one of the major reasons lots of Africa is starving and poor is due to the system most of the protestors would want to put in place. Capitalism was essentially banished and large socialist systems were put in place with government controlled companies in control of everything from food to energy...
Occupy London! Here we go again!
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The problem is the only way to sort that would be against what they are protesting for. In actual fact one of the major reasons lots of Africa is starving and poor is due to the system most of the protestors would want to put in place. Capitalism was essentially banished and large socialist systems were put in place with government controlled companies in control of everything from food to energy...
Soldato
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Were we not talking about the UK?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/969a605e-3616-11e0-9b3b-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1axI0xy2g
Problem with that is, that completely ignores those in the top 1% that won't be paying higher rate income tax, but rather corporation tax, dividend tax and so on.
Soldato
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I don't think that's a problem - it is what it is, looking at the income tax pool specifically. It doesn't purport to cover national insurance, VAT, CGT, etc.
But it skews it more favourably towards lower paid workers - where the real argument is how much do rich people pay in tax (not just income tax), when all forms of income tax are taken into account then the top 1% could easily be paying 50% or more of the total.
Soldato
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Oh so wrong...
Really? There was me thinking dictatorships based on feudal tribelines along with warlord derived power all supported by Western and now Chinese corporate interests, along with inter-tribal feuding well supported by the respective parties in the Cold War, massive population growth without support following immunisation, cultural beliefs and practices that can only be described as abhorrent, artificial country boundaries after the fall of the colonies, etc etc all contributed. Moreover there is difference between socialist systems and people who use a socialist methodology to justify their own extravagance and greed.
Which makes it useless for any kind of comparison.
And this thread is about all the stupid Occupy riots which started with Occupy wall street.
The fact of the matter is, give or take some percentages across the western world the top % of earners pay a massive amount of the total tax pool. Whether in 1 country the top earners are taxed more heavily on income tax and in another with capital gain tax is irrelevant.
The point is that all this bash the rich nonsense is completely unfounded.
That is all part of it as well...
Unfortunately post decolonisation (before we had major cold war interest) all the (elected) leaders went down the socialism route, forming large government corporations (usually run by their cronies) to control things like the buying of grain/agricultural goods from farmers and the subsequent selling of that to others. That alongside the land grabbing for socialist "farms" and the forced relocation of people onto these "farms" to work in small community groups. That alongside the quashing of capitalist ideals in most new nations in favour of "spreading the wealth" and controlling it through the government caused exports to plummet, costs to rise profits to dwindle. Net exporters became net importers and the populations suffered (cost of living increased relative to wages, famine became more common etc). This knockon effect was one of the reasons for the subsequent dissent in a lot of places, with the elected officials becoming more and more mental as their tenures continued... In a lot of African nations the full scale civil wars and cold war politics occured way after this (places like Congo being exceptions to this generalness), the nations had already destroyed themselves.
I'll reccomend a few books if you're interested, it's pretty interesting, although rather depressing reading!
Unfortunately there will always be an elite in life, at least with a more capitalist, liberal society it can be a race to the top rather than a race to the bottom.
EDIT: I'm intrigued if you can name a socialist society (by that I mean nation) that actually worked. A nation where people actually live out of poverty, certainly not most of Africa, the USSR, Cuba etc...
EDIT2: Don't get me wrong a full capitalist society would be nasty but I'm very wary about the suggestion that government can do better than business in more than a few areas (Police, army etc), that includes regulation (too much or wrong).
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Associate
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United Nations Agenda 21 map of the former United States
http://arcanumdeepsecrets.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/un_simulationmap2.jpg
This is actually being planned it's not some theory. Occupy protests are a way for the people to ask for this ' change '.
http://arcanumdeepsecrets.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/un_simulationmap2.jpg
This is actually being planned it's not some theory. Occupy protests are a way for the people to ask for this ' change '.
Ok... What does that have to do with this thread?
OMG the UN is suggesting more national park style locations to limit human impact!
I've told you, taxing people and giving it to banks is never capitalism. Redistributing wealth is socialism.
Redistributing wealth to poor people to real socialism.
Redistributing wealth and giving to big corps is corrupt socialism.
Nice Socialism can often turn into corrupt socialism.
We're so dependent on big corps that our livelihood now depends on giving our money to them. So it doesn't threaten the system collapsing. Capitalism has turned to corporate socialism.
Redistributing wealth to poor people to real socialism.
Redistributing wealth and giving to big corps is corrupt socialism.
Nice Socialism can often turn into corrupt socialism.
We're so dependent on big corps that our livelihood now depends on giving our money to them. So it doesn't threaten the system collapsing. Capitalism has turned to corporate socialism.
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What has biodiversity and sustainable development got to do with Corporate profit?
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What has occupy protest got to do with corporate profit? These idiots are blaming the entire system when it's the corruption of the few that have brought this mess about, not the average hard working company.
I see none of these protest leaders directing attention to the Rothschilds or the Windsor family, these families will stay rich and wealthy even after your precious protest ends. This is all a damn scam that the elite need so the people accept a 'new way of life'. A socialist state. Socialism is used to to accumulate wealth to the few not to the many.
I'll reccomend a few books if you're interested, it's pretty interesting, although rather depressing reading!
That's very kind but I'd rather rely on my experience of having lived and worked in Central Africa rather than some book that overlooks the distinction between the theory and the misapplication in practice by some author that has never ventured out of their ivory tower.
Yes, that's all well and good, but what's Agenda 21 got to do with all this?
Mausin
Cool, I take it you are around 70 then?
Most of what I was talking about occured in the 60s and 70s...
Oh and all the books I've read are by people with significant experience in Africa.
Either way I'm intigued to know your opinion on why relatively peaceful nations (which most african nations were for a while after independence) got into such mess.
Cool, I take it you are around 70 then?
Most of what I was talking about occured in the 60s and 70s...
Oh and all the books I've read are by people with significant experience in Africa.
Either way I'm intigued to know your opinion on why relatively peaceful nations (which most african nations were for a while after independence) got into such mess.
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Africa's problems go far further back than the 60s and the 70s to think otherwise is to get yourself sucked into an agenda and well books are books and seeing it with your own eyes are another thing. Most of the books on Africa have a obvious agenda. To attribute the problems of Africa to socialism because some aspects of socialism were used post and during decolonisation is rather naive. Would you attribute all their problems to capitalism because also some capitalistic methodologies were followed? As to my opinion well I don't think you can attribute a few years as anything other than a peaceful period in a rather turbulent history.
I realise that, and as I mentioned earlier I agree with all your other points about tribalism, culture etc. (it's quite refreshing you didn't attribute the main cause to external influence which seems to be what so many people think). I do however still think the kind of socialism used in most of africa post independence was one of the factors for it's current state. It's such a shame that so many of the new nations were left in a reasonable position, then destroyed by all of the above.
Yes, the way it was implemented was faulty it always is when used in these contexts because socialism methodology in the main has always been applied in a rather poor way. It is strange though that the people who castigate it for Mao, Stalin, etc then start threads about how Norway, Sweden, etc are all so amazing when they are based also on socialist principles in so many fundamental ways. Capitalism and Socialism all fall down as they all fall foul to greed in the application ... if you want a perfect society buy ants of the internet.