Occupy London! Here we go again!

[FlyingPig]

It's not difference of opinion. It's just totally I'll thought and complete rubbish.

You do not have an even spread of jobs, combined with people aren't all that different. You end up with a similar set of jobs as we do now. But with no free Market there is little chance of swapping to something you enjoy or progressing. Combined with the fact you usually don't have competition. Don't like the "company" you work for, tough luck that's it.

I don't really want to debate the way of actually getting there, but can I just point out Marx and Engels said completely the opposite about communism:

"In communist society, where nobody has one exclusive sphere of activity but each can become accomplished in any branch he wishes, society regulates the general production and thus makes it possible for me to do one thing today and another tomorrow, to hunt in the morning, fish in the afternoon, rear cattle in the evening, criticise after dinner, just as I have a mind, without ever becoming hunter, fisherman, herdsman or critic.

(German Ideology, http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01a.htm)


The whole idea is to actually rotate jobs and not be stuck in one thing all your life where you feel completely alienated. It's becoming the "whole" Renaissance man, if you like.

 

[Glaucus]

That really isn't possible at all. Skills take time to train in and you get better with experience. It is impossible to have such a mobile work force, switching around. Especially in modern society, where certain jobs can take decades to train d are getting ever more complex and specialised.
There's no getting away from it, what ever system you have. There s a huge list of undesirable jobs that have to be done and a very short list of dream jobs and an average amount of OK jobs.

 

[PermaBanned]

I don't recall ever questioning Karl Marx's ability or his intelligence, only the flaws in communism given the benefit of hindsight and seeing the implementation in practice several times.

I would expect that if he was alive today Karl Marx would be the first to point out these flaws and given his ability with socio-political ideologies he may well have elucidated a better philosophy based on the modern world and not that of 19th Century Europe.

If only he was. And if only we had Einstein to revisit his theory. And if only we had Lennon, or Martin Luther King, or El Che (who you will remember gave a speech condemning the Soviet Union), or any number of greats who would undoubtedly make the world a better place if they were here today. But we don't. And we really don't have anybody anywhere near the same caliber, which is perhaps a cause of a lot of problems with the world. Unfortunately, there's nothing we can do about it, apart from try to do them proud. You know there's problems with the world, and you know that there's something to be done about it. That's why people are occupying their cities. Because they know that they have to try to do better, and if they don't then we, as a species, may well not last that much longer.

Interesting article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15326636

 

[UK-AL05]

That really isn't possible at all. Skills take time to train in and you get better with experience. It is impossible to have such a mobile work force, switching around. Especially in modern society, where certain jobs can take decades to train d are getting ever more complex and specialised.
There's no getting away from it, what ever system you have. There s a huge list of undesirable jobs that have to be done and a very short list of dream jobs and an average amount of OK jobs.

A lot of low skill jobs are becoming redundant due to automation. Heck I have a robot that sweeps my floor...

The only jobs going to left are the highly skilled ones.

 

[D.P.]

Yes but the government is lying about the figures, i think its always obvious.

How is the tine foil working out for your new hat?

 

[D.P.]

That is fair enough, but surely it works the other way round too? All those people demonstrating may not know what they are for, but they surely know what they are against: the destroying of the welfare state, the lack of jobs, the decaying living standards, etc. You will always have the usual suspects joining demonstrations but there comes a point where the organised working class enters the scene and then you are talking business.
This is how all big changes happen: very confused and muddled protests without much leadership in the beginning, but give it a few years and let's see what happens.

The welfare state has not been destroyed, the rise in unemployment was not intentional and living standards have not decayed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Human_Development_Index_trends.svg

Unemployment in the UK is at 7.7%, much less than many counties . In previous recession unemployment has been higher, e.g. in 1993 at 10.7% and 11.9% in 1984. No one likes unemployment but that happens in recessions. Luckily there is a welfare state to look after the unemployed. We need measures to secure new jobs and companies. Perhaps corporate tax cut in exchange for employment.

 

[D.P.]

That really isn't possible at all. Skills take time to train in and you get better with experience. It is impossible to have such a mobile work force, switching around. Especially in modern society, where certain jobs can take decades to train d are getting ever more complex and specialised.
There's no getting away from it, what ever system you have. There s a huge list of undesirable jobs that have to be done and a very short list of dream jobs and an average amount of OK jobs.

Indeed, this is the insanity of it all.
You can't just become a medical doctor overnight by wanting to, you can't become a leading scientist one morning, you can't become a great engineer or basically any job in modern times.

People are different, with different skills and abilities and do specialized jobs appropriate for their abilities and knowledge.

Then there are the countless undesirable jobs. I suppose PermmaBanned is willing to try out his Utopian dream by working as a toilette cleaner?

 

[Xordium]

But the gradual change in China is the move from Communist economics towards capitalism...

Yes, which is what I said.

 

[Glaucus]

A lot of low skill jobs are becoming redundant due to automation. Heck I have a robot that sweeps my floor...

The only jobs going to left are the highly skilled ones.

Not anytime soon. You vastly underestimate all the menial tasks that have to be done and robots aren't even close to replacing.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Because they know that they have to try to do better, and if they don't then we, as a species, may well not last that much longer.

Do you agree with me that sitting in a city square isn't exactly productive? Wouldn't they be better off trying to cure some diseases, do some charity work, some productive policy research and formation?

 

[Tunney]

Do you agree with me that sitting in a city square isn't exactly productive?

It's caused a 19 page thread on OCuk and is all over the media. I'd say it is rather productive in publicising their concerns.

I work 3 minutes walk from the protests. One thing I'd wish they'd do is be a little more professional, like this Reddit commenter suggests. The current protesters look like a bunch of hobos with similarly crude cardboard signs. It's easy to dimiss them as lunatics. If they want passers-by to sympathise with their cause then they need to look a little more presentable.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

It's caused a 19 page thread on OCuk and is all over the media. I'd say it is rather productive in publicising their concerns.

But in the grand scheme of things, after their five minutes of fame, they'll have done nothing productive. Besides, most of us are just lol'ing.

I work 3 minutes walk from the protests. One thing I'd wish they'd do is be a little more professional, like this Reddit commenter suggests. The current protesters look like a bunch of hobos with similarly crude cardboard signs. It's easy to dimiss them as lunatics. If they want passers-by to sympathise with their cause then they need to look a little more presentable.

And ironically most of the arrests made so far have been for possession of cannabis, right?

 

[robgmun]

I hope this hasn't already been posted

 

[D.P.]

Not anytime soon. You vastly underestimate all the menial tasks that have to be done and robots aren't even close to replacing.

Indeed, I have a PhD in Robotics, anyone believing that here will be robots in the near future capable of doing most of the menial tasks in todays world are deluding themselves with Hollywood fiction.

 

[robgmun]

Indeed, I have a PhD in Robotics, anyone believing that here will be robots in the near future capable of doing most of the menial tasks in todays world are deluding themselves with Hollywood fiction.

Just a little off topic, but at our rate of progress. When do you think we will have robots which will look and act fairly human? I say not for at least 150 years.

 

[D.P.]

It's caused a 19 page thread on OCuk and is all over the media. I'd say it is rather productive in publicising their concerns.

I work 3 minutes walk from the protests. One thing I'd wish they'd do is be a little more professional, like this Reddit commenter suggests. The current protesters look like a bunch of hobos with similarly crude cardboard signs. It's easy to dimiss them as lunatics. If they want passers-by to sympathise with their cause then they need to look a little more presentable.

"The current protesters look like a bunch of hobos with similarly crude cardboard signs. It's easy to dimiss them as lunatics"

That is because for a large part they are alternative, hippy, homeless, destitutes or immature students, with some unemployed graduates who are whining because they don't find a job with their history of art degree and feel like blaming people that actually succeeded with their lives.

 

[arknor]

theres still a few hippies camped out in newcastle

 

[D.P.]

Just a little off topic, but at our rate of progress. When do you think we will have robots which will look and act fairly human? I say not for at least 150 years.

I would agree, 150 years, could be longer. The question is do we want to? For starters if you want a machine that does stuff just like a human, then just use a human - much simpler and easier. And humans aren't that great at doing many tasks, specialization is the key.

There are also legal issues in many areas which are a long way behind the technology and traditionally have always taken a long time to adapt. A major limitation in medial automation is legal consequence.

And then their is the unemployment side of things. The protectors are complaining about high unemployment and at the same time seems to think technology will take care of all the menial tasks in their Utopian communist day dream. Well if that happens the unemployment rate will sky rocket as 10s of millions of people without the abilities, skills, knowledge or motivation to do other jobs become a useless drain on society instead of productive and well appreciated workers.

 

[PermaBanned]

theres still a few hippies camped out in newcastle

I heard that a few more had joined since the first night?

 

[Glaucus]

If combined with other technology, then people won't need to work.
But it requires phenomenal amounts of easy and cheap energy, creating matter out of energy and 3d printers. All of them are in extremely early development.
It also brings up the question, when robots can do all the work and repair each other and we can create matter from energy, what will us humans do? Most of us would be totally bored I would imagine. When that happens I can see a communist society working as you aren't limited by resources.