Occupy London! Here we go again!

[kwerk]

A country is only as wealthy as what it can produce. That wealth ONLY comes from the private sector producing real stuff (food, cars, timber, drugs, weapons, whatever).

The government simply can NOT produce wealth. All the government can do is help the private sector produce wealth more efficiently. It does that by maintaining a scaffold for capitalism to function smoothly upon. The scaffold only has 3 parts:

1. Infrastructure (roads, ports, dare I say high speed internet?)
2. Defense of property rights (military and police)
3. Minting currency

Everything else gets worked out by itself through the invisible hand of capitalism.

Any government action above that is a net LOSS to the wealth production of the country. It's the equivalent of paying people to dig holes and fill them in again. It keeps those hole diggers fed but at the expense of the actual producers. That's why the government can NEVER "create jobs" outside of those 3 areas.

Where we are at now is the hole diggers out number the producers and it's running out of steam. The 99% people are hole diggers BTW, that's why they are angry.

What we really operate under now is a form a fascism where the private sector (or what should be) and government is completely intertwined and caused a bunch of bubbles to be blown up.

 

[PermaBanned]

You stated that the vast majority of human beings share their views. They don't.

100% of the people at the protest can have those views, however they are still not 99% of the people in the UK. They are statistically insignificant, that I am afraid is a fact you will have to get used to.

I think you'll find i said share 'those' views, which you really can't argue with. And i also said that we're part of a majority whether we want to be or not.

 

[RDM]

A country is only as wealthy as what it can produce. That wealth ONLY comes from the private sector producing real stuff (food, cars, timber, drugs, weapons, whatever).

That really isn't the case and hasn't been for an awfully long time. Physical goods are not the only method of wealth creation.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

A country is only as wealthy as what it can produce. That wealth ONLY comes from the private sector producing real stuff (food, cars, timber, drugs, weapons, whatever).

This is too simplistic and quite wrong. I very much recommend 'Made In Britain' by Andrew Marr for a good example of why.

 

[Jokester]

That really isn't the case and hasn't been for an awfully long time. Physical goods are not the only method of wealth creation.

Indeed, services create wealth as well.

 

[kwerk]

This is how debt comes in to what I described above. Those 'hole diggers' have promised China/Germany/Japan/USA and their future selves that they will become 'producers' one day and pay back what they have consumed from the Chinese/German/America/UK producers!!

Not going to happen. I'll tell you what will happen though:

The promised production (wealth) will evaporate because it is a fantasy. What little real wealth (capital) that is left will build some factories and the hole diggers will go and work there in a way the Chinese do today!!

 

[kwerk]

Indeed, services create wealth as well.

HOW? The only way services can make money is from producers paying them. Trace anything to the very bottom and there is a guy digging metal out of the ground or growing crops or cutting down trees or producing something tangible that people NEED.

At best you can help a producer produce stuff more efficiently. For example you fix a mechanic's computer, who can then looks up how to fix a farmers tractor, who can then plant his crop on the right day to achieve a better yield.

The farmer has still produced the wealth. The IT guy and mechanic didn't produce any wealth. Without the farmer nothing has occurred. Without the mechanic the farmer could still plant the crops on his land by hand and produced wealth.

 

[[TW]Fox]

didn't produce any wealth. Without the farmer nothing has occurred. Without the mechanic the farmer could still plant the crops on his land by hand and produced wealth.

The farmer would be produce an order of magnitude less wealth if he had to do it by hand. Therefore the services of the mechanic enable more wealth to be generated than otherwise would be the case.

 

[Castiel]

I think you'll find i said share 'those' views, which you really can't argue with. And i also said that we're part of a majority whether we want to be or not.

Now you are not making any sense.

The majority of people do not share those views, and whether we are part of a majority is entirely subjective. We certainly are not part of their so called 99%, because A) there are not 60m people camped out in London and B) I have already pointed out that 99% of the people do not share the views of anti capitalists.

What the majority of people want is simply more accountability and equality within the democratic capitalist society we currently have. They are the 99% not those sitting on the steps of St Paul's with their cardboard banners or the proven authoritarianism and oppression inherent in a communist system.

 

[kwerk]

That really isn't the case and hasn't been for an awfully long time. Physical goods are not the only method of wealth creation.

That 'awful long time' has been floating on a sea of debt though, and before that colonialism and slavery. It's an illusion.

 

[kwerk]

double post

 

[PureAppleJuice]

Oh God, when will it end? Do these people REALLY want to advocate socialism or Marxism? Do they have ANY idea of how godawful that would be?

And before anyone says 'lolbutRussiawasn'tCommunism' - well, actually it was, and it was awful, and the country is now a mess.

I do understand that there is some inequality, but swinging to extremes, and particularly having naieve, ill formed conclusions to back up those extremes goes nowhere.

 

[kwerk]

The farmer would be produce an order of magnitude less wealth if he had to do it by hand. Therefore the services of the mechanic enable more wealth to be generated than otherwise would be the case.

Well it's the tangible goods of the tractor, the fuel, etc that is increasing the yield, and the labour that mined the metal and put it together. I suppose mechanic services could be thought of as wealth producing if it helps people get to work. But is he producing enough wealth to pay for all the tools and computers, the car he drives to the garage, the house he lives in, the food he eats, the clothes he wears, the holidays he takes?

Can he live like that without being subsidized by what is basically slave labour in China making those tools and clothes?

I suppose it's not black and white. You could have a programmer writing a new version of Pro/E that will let an engineer produce a more fuel efficient tractor or something.

But for every Pro/E developer there are 10,000 programmers writing useless iphone apps.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Well it's the tangible goods of the tractor, the fuel, etc that is increasing the yield, and the labour that mined the metal and put it together.

And who designed the tractor? Somebody who probably didnt get his hands dirty - a design engineer simply providing a service. Without this service, no tractor. Without the services of the management of the firm, no tractor...

 

[Jokester]

Well it's the tangible goods of the tractor, the fuel, etc that is increasing the yield, and the labour that mined the metal and put it together. I suppose mechanic services could be thought of as wealth producing if it helps people get to work. But is he producing enough wealth to pay for all the tools and computers, the car he drives to the garage, the house he lives in, the food he eats, the clothes he wears, the holidays he takes?

Can he live like that without being subsidized by what is basically slave labour in China making those tools and clothes?

I suppose it's not black and white. You could have a programmer writing a new version of Pro/E that will let an engineer produce a more fuel efficient tractor or something.

But for every Pro/E developer there are 10,000 programmers writing useless iphone apps.

But life would be a hell of a lot duller if all we could spend our income on was essentials like food. Everything else is luxuries, doesn't mean that the production of luxuries isn't making something of value, even if it's a "useless" app.

 

[PureAppleJuice]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15324901 - First thirty seconds of that video, you rage, you lose.

 

[Floogie]

And before anyone says 'lolbutRussiawasn'tCommunism' - well, actually it was, and it was awful, and the country is now a mess.

lolbutRussiawasn'tCommunism. Anyone who knows anything about Marxism knows this. Excluding yourself.

The country is in a mess due to its transition to a market economy. You realise that the life expectancy and general quality of life in the Soviet Union (1988) was higher than any post-USSR period so far in the Russian Federation?

Probably not.

 

[D.P.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15324901 - First thirty seconds of that video, you rage, you lose.

LOL, the girl in the start of that video is exactly the mindless **** that I knew would be at these protests. Hilarious

"They're all up there in their nice swanky houses, nice cars, dinner parties, and we, us the 99% of the population are actually living off baked beans. We know families that are counting the baked beans on their children's plates to make sure they just have enough to eat."

What an absolute lune. But I guess I must be in the top 1% because I used some value pork that was 50% off and some cheap vegetables from Denner to cook a stew with a £3 bottle of wine thrown in for good measure, living in my swanky rental flat.

 

[Jokester]

First thirty seconds of that video, you rage, you lose.

You mean you aren't counting the baked beans on your kids plates? The extravegence.

 

[[TW]Fox]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15324901 - First thirty seconds of that video, you rage, you lose.

99% of the country is living on baked beans?

Tax rates have to come down?

Then she says mortgage rates must come down?! We have a base rate of 0.5%!!

Pretty much sums up my point earlier - these people have NO idea what they are moaning about. No idea at all. Infact the way she went on about company directors nice cars and nice houses hinted that perhaps this is simply jealousy?