Occupy London! Here we go again!

Floogie said:
Marxist-Leninist. You said it. Not Marxist.

You are making the assumption that competition can only be borne out under capitalism and through the accumulation of money or material goods. Clearly not necessarily the case.
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I'm not making any assumptions at all, Human history illustrates the materialistic nature of man and until we can overcome that inherent materialism then libertarian Marxism is always destined to fail or lead to authoritarian states such as the USSR, Russia, Cuba et al.... What I am stating is that Soviet Communism was indeed based on Marxism. Marxism is a relatively broad political philosophy and the USSR was a prime example of it's practical application, the fact that Lenin and his successors implemented their own interpretations of the philosophy only illustrates the inherent flaws in it.



Floogie said:
Libertarian socialist societies have existed and will possibly exist in the future. I think we are all aware, both Left and Right, that the concentration of power between the multi-nationals and the state is too great and it's in our best interest to debate, if not to promote, such options for the future.
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Note I said Libertarian Marxism, I was very specific.
 
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Zbigniew Brzezinski says keep a list of "the rich" and make them give back their wealth

Dr. Zbigniew Brzezinski, a former National Security Advisor to President Carter and a frequent guest on his daughter Mika’s MSNBC program, made a series of strange statements during his segment on “Morning Joe” earlier today.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/msn...of-rich-people-to-pressure-them-to-give-back/

You know this O.W.S protest is a farce when you have criminals like Soros and Brzezinski backing it.
 
PureAppleJuice said:
I wouldn't really say that capitalism is there to benefit 'everyone', there's always going to be some losers.

The reason we're debating Marxism is that, if you listen to some of these protestors they're spouting Bolshevik crap.

It isn't just the '1%' who are reaping the rewards. I don't know where this idea has come from.
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There is left and right in the protest.
 
PureAppleJuice said:
With all due respect I have studied the Soviet Union and Marxism in depth for several years. My dissertation itself was primarily on how Stalinism was inherently Marxist. And, as any Historian can tell you, History is almost always written subjectively.
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Now I can meet you half-way if you are alluding to Stalinism having a large component of Marxism or as some kind of evolution of it. However it clearly wasn't the practice of it as defined by Marx.

In fact, you're right, the standard of living was somewhat better in the Soviet years, but at what cost? I guess you've got to break a few eggs to make an omelette.
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I agree. They, like China, paid a price for their industrialisation at break-neck speed. Then again, has the West not broken a few eggs as a price for its prosperity? Not necessarily its own population, but still...

And the Marxist democractic checks that you mention are inherently flawed for several reasons, the key one being human nature. I don't doubt that Marx was a great man and massively influential but in principal it doesn't work without authoritarianism.
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Sorry, we clash there on what human nature is. The fact that some of the greatest minds are yet to define the essence of human nature means that the jury should still be out on this. I personally feel that its malleable, of course making Marxist theory possible.
 
sp1ke said:
BRB i'm plugged into the society matrix which wants you to become poorer and work harder to make those on top even more money then saying oh this occupy thing is a load of nonsense. Hey guess what nobody cares you're some idiot on a forum, you're kind of people who will suffer and think they're being "rewarded" with some crapp job.

Prices are rising, salaries arn't and profits keep hitting new records for big companies yet they complain how hard it is for them to make money oh boo hoo.

Good it's about time for a revolution. Because the gap keeps growing and it's going too far with greed and corruption.
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I agree totally, that is why communism/socialism is really not the way to go in anything larger than a small commune/hamlet.

(only half joking here, I didn't realise you were spotlighting capitalism until the second paragraph...)
 
PureAppleJuice said:
I wouldn't really say that capitalism is there to benefit 'everyone', there's always going to be some losers.
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Under capitalism you're supposed to have the freedom to lose, that's why we have for example bankruptcy laws. 30 years into the Great Regression however I'm not sure that's the case any more, sure we still have bankruptcy but with nothing representing a meaningful safety net, and access to capital being limited to fewer and fewer people, the freedom to lose at the moment is evaporating alarmingly.
 
Despite the ‘V’ mask being used as an anarchistic rebellion to capitalism and global financial institutions, protesters buying the iconic headwear have unwittingly lined the pockets of one of the largest media companies in the world, Time Warner.

The corporation holds rights to the ‘V’ image and is paid a licensing fee from every sale of the mask. In particular that is a blow to hacker group ‘Anonymous’ who are known for their hatred of ‘corporate America’ and gained infamy for their attacks on Mastercard, Visa and other global institutions.

This seems to have not perturbed protesters across the globe however, as many are still using the ‘V’ mask as the face of the ‘occupy’ demonstrations. Sales of the mask have jumped by 179% on Amazon.co.uk - coinciding with the demonstrations in London and across the globe.
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http://uk.news.yahoo.com/when-did-vendetta-masks-begin-to-be-used-by-protesters-.html

*snigger*
 
Dolph said:
I was hoping you'd come up with something new rather than repeating what has already been completely discredited.
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No, you have just demonstrated a complete inability to accept that somebody might (shock horror) have a different opinion to yourself. Even so, nothing has been discredited in any sense of the word, perhaps you'd like to try?
 
PermaBanned said:
No, you have just demonstrated a complete inability to accept that somebody might (shock horror) have a different opinion to yourself. Even so, nothing has been discredited in any sense of the word, perhaps you'd like to try?
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I'm more than happy to embrace a well argued, evidence based opinion that is different from my own. The problem is yours is no such position. You advocate communism/marxism/socialism while completely ignoring what has happened every time it has been implemented, you claim popular support despite zero evidence of it, you claim 'democracy' in action, despite the fact the SWP stands every election and loses their deposit nearly everywhere...

Capitalism may be a bad system, but every other system tried has been far worse...
 
PermaBanned said:
When have i ever said that i support anything that the SWP is or does?
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When you advocate the same positions they support, you suggest implicit support for their aims. You can't exactly share their positions and reject them, well unless you're going for a Judian people's front approach.

The SWP has stood on the same sort of forced equality platform advocated by the occupy group, and yet has never even come close to being in danger of finishing anywhere near the top of an election result. That suggests their ideas are not popular with the public at large.

Why do those protesting think they are anything other than a tiny fringe group getting undue coverage due to their decision to set about inconveniencing others?
 
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