Winter tyres advice. Only on drive wheels??

[Scrutinize]

All that does is show she was driving too fast for the conditions especially to prove the point.

Also dynamics of driving on wet / greasy roads is different to heavy snow.

There is this mentaility on british roads that you can drive as fast as you want irrespective of the conditions.

 

[Django x2]

You won't just end up in a lift off over steer situation at the sorts of speeds you should be driving at in snow if lift off oversteer could potentially be a problem though.

Yes, you will. If the car understeers, in the same example, the car will now oversteer. And, if you drive suitable to the conditions, there is no point in fitting 2, it introduces more risk than reducing risk.

You are also assuming that winters on the front will offer enough grip to induce the oversteer in the rear. They may not and chances are they won't.

Of course they will, that's the point of winter tyres, to provide improved grip levels over summer tyres. This issue is even noticeable between mismatched summer tyres, it will be even more noticeable with winter tyres.

In snow, you don't just trollolol off the road at the slightest thing.

That's exactly what happens in snow when something happens you are not expecting. I'd rather slowly understeer off the road than spin and not know where I'll end up.

Not at the sorts of speeds you should be driving at in snow.

Then don't fit any at all. Adding 2 will introduce a risk that otherwise wouldn't be there.

 

[Django x2]

All that does is show she was driving too fast for the conditions especially to prove the point.

Also dynamics of driving on wet / greasy roads is different to heavy snow.

There is this mentaility on british roads that you can drive as fast as you want irrespective of the conditions.

No, it shows that at 30mph (perfectly acceptable speed for the wet) that front grippier tyres will throw you off the road. For all you know, that could happen on the motorway and you have to swerve to avoid an accident or object. It's not just about driving suitably for the conditions, it's being able to deal with other road users (again, even less predictable in the snow).

The dynamics of snow are different, you're right. In that snow is far worse, which will only seek to make the point more valid. If she hadn't changed any of the tyres, what would have happened to the car?

 

[Scrutinize]

That's exactly what happens in snow when something happens you are not expecting. I'd rather slowly understeer off the road than spin and not know where I'll end up.

This is the underlying issue though. In snow you should be driving like you are expecting every eventuality to happen. Unfortunately, people can’t manage this in the summer let alone the winter.

Actually people should be driving like that all the time but they don’t, it’s like the old excuse for jumping the lights, 'oh I didn’t realise they were going to change' when that is exactly what they are designed to do.

Then don't fit any at all. Adding 2 will introduce a risk that otherwise wouldn't be there.

It would be much safer if people just didn’t drive in snow unless they can do so sensibly. Down here it is rare to get snow settle especially to the extent it did during last year’s snowfall but people kept on driving like the roads were a dry, hence loads of accidents.

No, it shows that at 30mph (perfectly acceptable speed for the wet) that front grippier tyres will throw you off the road. For all you know, that could happen on the motorway and you have to swerve to avoid an accident or object. It's not just about driving suitably for the conditions, it's being able to deal with other road users (again, even less predictable in the snow).

The dynamics of snow are different, you're right. In that snow is far worse, which will only seek to make the point more valid. If she hadn't changed any of the tyres, what would have happened to the car?

Was 30 perfectly acceptable for the wet where she was driving though, clearly not as she spun. As I said all it proves is that she was going too fast for the conditions.

If that was snow, you would be going a fraction of the speed.

 

[Dr Who]

Lol,

This misses the point. You can drive much harder and faster in better weather so why would you gimp your car when you want to be able to drive fast. If you drove at regular speeds and did not push the car on b-roads etc you won’t experience any problems unless you have guaranteed ditch finders.

In snow, winter/snow tyres help but still require you to drive appropriate to the conditions i.e. carefully which can alleviate most of the issues of driving on snow anyway.

Right, drivers get the feel for the conditions through the front wheels, if you fit front wheel drive cars with Winter tyres at the front and summers tyres at the rear, you have a completely false impression of the conditions, as all you can feel is the front, like the Vicky video you are clearly clueless about the impact of this and how seriously it affects the stability. In poor conditions you never ever have a car with more grip at the front than the rear.

With 4 summer tyres you will understeer and get a correct feel for the car and will be safe, with winter tyres on the rear only they will have zero impact on braking.

You fit 4 tyres for winter, or forget it, anything else makes you a danger to yourself and everyone around you.

Honestly after seeing some of the rubbish you have posted since this comment, I hope you are trolling because heaven forbid you are driving like that come the snow.

Lucero is completely right, understeer is far safer, and so if you are driving to the conditions (5mph likely) no need for winter tyres on the front, the modern cars traction control will not get confused about conditions and the car will be one hell of a lot safer on all or nothing.

And let's not forget you will be using those dangerously out of balance tyres in rain and wet roads, not just when it snows!!!!!

 

[Django x2]

She only spun because her rear tyres had no grip. She hadn't introduced extra confidence because her front tyres were new. Therefore, if I've been able to negotiate a corner in the snow with a little understeer, chances are you'd expect the car to handle much better now that i've got new winter snow tyres on the front. In which case, I'd be in for a pretty nasty shock.

The outcome of this entire thread is simple:
Either fit 4, or don't fit any. If you're the type of person to have never locked up in snow and never had understeer there is no point in you fitting just two winter tyres.

 

[Django x2]

In actual fact, I've just found a youtube video regarding this exact issue. Watch the slalom part (39s onwards), or the whole thing for full on education:

 

[Dr Who]

Was 30 perfectly acceptable for the wet where she was driving though, clearly not as she spun. As I said all it proves is that she was going too fast for the conditions. .

She proved it was safe speed when she drove with the appropriate tyres on the correct axles.

When she moved the grippier tyres to the front, the car became unstable and spun at the same speed as the reverse when a minor aquaplane was easily correctable. She had no feel through the steering that something was amiss until it was too late.

Why are you finding this difficult to understand?

 

[Scrutinize]

Right, drivers get the feel for the conditions through the front wheels, if you fit front wheel drive cars with Winter tyres at the front and summers tyres at the rear, you have a completely false impression of the conditions, as all you can feel is the front, like the Vicky video you are clearly clueless about the impact of this and how seriously it affects the stability. In poor conditions you never ever have a car with more grip at the front than the rear.

The point is, drivers should know that in wet conditions, you are more likely to spin and aquaplane than in the dry. In modern cars you have very little feel for what is going on, coupled with the fact most people drive around ignorant of the conditions. The problem is poor driver awareness and training

Example, driving down a built up area in the dry doing 30 may be ok and if something happens, i.e. a car pulling off the drive or child runs out you may be able to stop. If it is raining, you should automatically drop your speed to 20-25 knowing that if something happens you would have reduced grip. Not continue on at 30 then when / if something happens you find you can’t do anything about it. The same for cornering. Taking roundabout at 30 in the dry may be fine but you should know in the wet to slow down. In snow you should be at a snail’s pace.

If you have new tyres on the front and old ones on the back you should know that you will have improved grip on the front but not on the rear so your driving should accommodate this. The problem is people just don’t think or show any awareness.

With 4 summer tyres you will understeer and get a correct feel for the car and will be safe, with winter tyres on the rear only they will have zero impact on braking.

No they will have an impact, the issue is if you are not driving to account for it. Fit winters on the front and you may be able to get of the drive and down the road but this isn’t some carte blanche to drive at whatever speed you would in the dry.

You fit 4 tyres for winter, or forget it, anything else makes you a danger to yourself and everyone around you.

I haven’t disagreed with this point.

Honestly after seeing some of the rubbish you have posted since this comment, I hope you are trolling because heaven forbid you are driving like that come the snow.

I drive fine in the snow, because I understand how cars react in these conditions. As I have pointed out in my other posts most don’t.

Lucero is completely right, understeer is far safer, and so if you are driving to the conditions (5mph likely) no need for winter tyres on the front, the modern cars traction control will not get confused about conditions and the car will be one hell of a lot safer on all or nothing.

Drive appropriately to the conditions and you won’t have to worry about either.

And let's not forget you will be using those dangerously out of balance tyres in rain and wet roads, not just when it snows!!!!!

Yea, that’s another issue and if you are using winter tyres for all round driving then I would only fit 4.

I have been approaching from this from a snow only scenario, i.e. a wheel swap just to get about.

 

[Dr Who]

You sir are so wrong, I am not even going to bother trying to convince you any longer.

You cannot argue with someone who believes black is white...

 

[ubersonic]

Not at the sorts of speeds you should be driving at in snow.

At any speed, the speed has nothing to do with it, the car being more likely to crash with 2 snow tyres than with 0 does. Good front grip and poor rear grip is not better than average grip all round!

 

[Scrutinize]

She only spun because her rear tyres had no grip. She hadn't introduced extra confidence because her front tyres were new. Therefore, if I've been able to negotiate a corner in the snow with a little understeer, chances are you'd expect the car to handle much better now that i've got new winter snow tyres on the front. In which case, I'd be in for a pretty nasty shock.

The outcome of this entire thread is simple:
Either fit 4, or don't fit any. If you're the type of person to have never locked up in snow and never had understeer there is no point in you fitting just two winter tyres.

Not disagreeing with you, but she should have accounted for it. If you are going to fit new fronts and have pretty worn rears, then you should realise the impact this will have and drive accordingly.

I thought most people would know this

In actual fact, I've just found a youtube video regarding this exact issue. Watch the slalom part (39s onwards), or the whole thing for full on education:

Again, driving too fast for the conditions. Halve the speed and it would probably alleviate the problem.

She proved it was safe speed when she drove with the appropriate tyres on the correct axles.

When she moved the grippier tyres to the front, the car became unstable and spun at the same speed as the reverse when a minor aquaplane was easily correctable. She had no feel through the steering that something was amiss until it was too late.

Why are you finding this difficult to understand?

I don't find it difficult to understand. This is probably the problem. I assume people would understand the impact of mismatched tyres and drive accordingly.

 

[Scrutinize]

At any speed, the speed has nothing to do with it, the car being more likely to crash with 2 snow tyres than with 0 does. Good front grip and poor rear grip is not better than average grip all round!

Sorry but speed has everything to do with it.

 

[Scrutinize]

You sir are so wrong, I am not even going to bother trying to convince you any longer.

You cannot argue with someone who believes black is white...

I am agreeing with you though, you just seem to think I am not?

What I am disagreeing with are the examples shown to prove the point. All these are showing are that people are not driving to account for the conditions or their car.

 

[Django x2]

Again, driving too fast for the conditions. Halve the speed and it would probably alleviate the problem.

Wrong, the speed is largely irrelevant, it's about grip contact with the road. At 15mph, I can promise you, the exact same thing would have happened to that car in the slalom. You've even said yourself that a child could step out or similar. Well, you have to assume that's what those cones represent. With the two tyres you've fitted to "get you up the road" you now increase your chance over oversteer, irrespective of speed. If a child steps out, or you have to avoid a car that can't stop from a side road immediately in your path, your counter measures are going to make you spin. It's simple physics, in fact, it's even simpler than physics.

All these are showing are that people are not driving to account for the conditions or their car.

That's because the car is unsafe, made so by the driver, not the conditions.

Fit 4, or none, end of.

 

[ubersonic]

Sorry but speed has everything to do with it.

No it really doesn't this will happen at any speed, if you take the same corner exactly the same in a car three times using 4 winters, 4 summers and 2+2 the 2+2 will come out worst. Does the fact that so many people are disagreeing with you and that one even linked a video pretty much proving what people are saying really mean nothing to you?

What I am disagreeing with are the examples shown to prove the point. All these are showing are that people are not driving to account for the conditions or their car.

And if you do drive to account for the conditions of the car, you will be better off with 0 winters than 2, its not a very difficult concept especially considering the amount of explaining that has been done.

 

[Scrutinize]

Wrong, the speed is largely irrelevant, it's about grip contact with the road. At 15mph, I can promise you, the exact same thing would have happened to that car in the slalom. You've even said yourself that a child could step out or similar. Well, you have to assume that's what those cones represent. With the two tyres you've fitted to "get you up the road" you now increase your chance over oversteer, irrespective of speed. If a child steps out, or you have to avoid a car that can't stop from a side road immediately in your path, your counter measures are going to make you spin. It's simple physics, in fact, it's even simpler than physics.

That's because the car is unsafe, made so by the driver, not the conditions.

Fit 4, or none, end of.

Speed is hugely relevant in snow or ice where there is no contact with the road surface only the snow or ice or compacted snow/ice. Unlike rain or sludge on a grit road where most of the time you are making contact with the road surface.

No it really doesn't this will happen at any speed, if you take the same corner exactly the same in a car three times using 4 winters, 4 summers and 2+2 the 2+2 will come out worst. Does the fact that so many people are disagreeing with you and that one even linked a video pretty much proving what people are saying really mean nothing to you?

This will depend on the speed, condition of the tyres, drive system and weight / handling of the car. If you are going slow enough you won’t loose grip with any of these.

I had assumed that people would not put new fronts on, be it winter or regular tyres, with worn rears (more than a few k from new assuming 20-30k life). I thought this was generally accepted and worse case (winter tyres aside) instead of swapping all 4 regular tyres you would put the best/newest tyres on the rear.

When it comes to snow/winter tyres I always assume they are only needed for a very limited application, i.e. a quick trip down the road during deep settled snow so you may do a swap out. I would not expect anyone to have winter fronts and regular rears as a normal set up for day to day use. If you are fitting winters on the ‘off chance’ it may snow heavily then of course you would fit 4 tyres and not mix and match. Decent regular tyres are fine 99.9% of the time in the UK (well down south they are) so to me winters are overkill, what lets the system down is driver behaviour. Roads usually become blocked completely within 1 hour of heavy snow down here anyway until they are cleared and grit.

 

[Django x2]

The problem you seem to be missing is, how do you know if you are driving slow enough when the front of the car is happily telling you it can cope? The rear of the car can't tell you that information until it is too late. When you understeer, you know you've hit the limit and back off and drive even more controlled. When you oversteer, you don't have the ability to ease off as you'd already stacked it.

You are given a mass false sense of grip which will naturally make you think you have more grip that you actually do.

Regarding speed on ice / snow (ice espeically). A car without 4 winter tyres will break traction even under braking at the smallest of speeds. That is all it will take for the back end to swing round if you only have winter tyres on the front. The video of the slalom is relevant from even 5mph on ice. Large movements of the car on ice will invoke a simple pendulum effect, or understeer, and that's that.

 

[Scrutinize]

The problem you seem to be missing is, how do you know if you are driving slow enough when the front of the car is happily telling you it can cope? The rear of the car can't tell you that information until it is too late. When you understeer, you know you've hit the limit and back off and drive even more controlled. When you oversteer, you don't have the ability to ease off as you'd already stacked it.

You are given a mass false sense of grip which will naturally make you think you have more grip that you actually do.

Regarding speed on ice / snow (ice espeically). A car without 4 winter tyres will break traction even under braking at the smallest of speeds. That is all it will take for the back end to swing round if you only have winter tyres on the front.

In settled snow speeds of 5mph will do it. Anything over 15-20 on a clear snowed up road and you are asking for trouble. In a residential area with traffic and parked cars, a snails pace at most. The reality is people shouldn't drive in settled snow (non-grit roads) unless they know what to expect or how to deal with it. Unfortunately people try who shouldn't and people crash. But as this is the UK there is no need for winter tyres to be a permanent fit.

 

[ubersonic]

The problem you seem to be missing is, how do you know if you are driving slow enough when the front of the car is happily telling you it can cope? The rear of the car can't tell you that information until it is too late. When you understeer, you know you've hit the limit and back off and drive even more controlled. When you oversteer, you don't have the ability to ease off as you'd already stacked it.

You are given a mass false sense of grip which will naturally make you think you have more grip that you actually do.

Regarding speed on ice / snow (ice espeically). A car without 4 winter tyres will break traction even under braking at the smallest of speeds. That is all it will take for the back end to swing round if you only have winter tyres on the front. The video of the slalom is relevant from even 5mph on ice. Large movements of the car on ice will invoke a simple pendulum effect, or understeer, and that's that.

^THIS^