Occupy London! Here we go again!

doofer said:
It's a Thermal Image Camera, not an X-Ray Camera, it cannot see through anything, it can only show surface Temperatures.

A) You do realise that that Camera is calibrated to only show 14-19C it's not going to kill anyone a 5C difference..

B) Again, it's NOT an X-Ray Camera, it shows SURFACE only.

Do you want to try again? :)
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You should try again, as you don't understand. The tent will leak loads of heat, as Tefal said, if it didn't the people inside would roast. This heat is emitted as IR.
 
[TW]Fox;20401329 said:
If you feel so strongly about it why do you embrace it and take advantage of the good things it has to offer? Why do you exploit the fruits of capitalism for your own entertainment? You wouldnt have these things in your world, so why do you need them now?
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Because we live in a capitalist society. I can't believe you haven't read that bit yet. You deal the hand you're dealt. There is no alternative that would be better for anybody.

cm1179 said:
but you'd still not hesitate to give a kidney?
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I have a donor card if that's what you mean. Giving an organ while alive and in (relatively) good health is a very different thing to what we've been discussing. Even so, wrong thread ;)

Tefal said:
You haven't noticed that every time super has gone "protesting" it has been for something that directly benefits him monetarily?
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I won't bother/bore you with the details, but you're wrong. Even so, one of the reasons i don't go to every little gathering or protest possible is because the state of the left in the North East is so dire that, other than the fact that protesting as we do in the West in general is so unlikely to bring about the change that it wants to, the people pretending to 'lead' and those that blindly follow them are (regardless of intention) more likely to alienate people on the streets, meaning it would be more productive to do the same thing in the middle of a field somewhere. The larger ones are usually better though.
 
PermaBanned said:
Because we live in a capitalist society. I can't believe you haven't read that bit yet. You deal the hand you're dealt. There is no alternative that would be better for anybody.
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You could take the £10 a month you spend on your phone contract and use it to buy a homeless guy food each month?

instead of playing games on your xbox you could volunteer at a soup kitchen or simply use the money saved to buy them ingredients.

You could use the money saved on the electricity bill from not using a high end enthusiast computer and put that money towards funding a left wing group you think will make a difference?

Each of these costs you purely material wealth/enjoyment earned from material property and would improve life for an individual, a group of people and even everyone if you truly believe in the political group you invest in.



but then you wouldn't be able to blame capitalists and you wouldn't be able to play with your expensive luxury items while demanding others forego luxuries to pay for your life choices.
 
I can't be bothered to respond properly right now, i'll just say that i most certainly don't have a "high end enthusiast computer". She's probably close to the lowest spec you could reasonably use with modern software without starting to develop some annoying problems.
 
Lies, damned lies and straightforward propaganda

scorza said:
Is Occupy London a part-time protest?
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I can't find anyone who will independently confirm where this 90% figure came from. Cllr Richardson says it was determined by police thermal imaging. But a spokesman for the Corporation of London police said he couldn't comment on operational procedure, and that the statistic hadn't come from the police. In fact, the only person who has spoken about it is Cllr Richardson himself, who later told the Guardian he hadn't heard it from official sources.
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How peculiar :confused:

In the bright light of day,the whole story seems very fishy; it sounds as if it was knocked together by one or other of the hard-line right-wing rags beloved of the Tory blue-rinse brigade.
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/25/occupy-london-tents-night

So the police have now denied that the thermal image videos came from them, and no-one knows where they actually came from. How can evidence without a known source be considered valid? This didn't stop the usual right-wing newspapers from gleefully publishing them though. The City of London councillor who was quoted in the press is now looking quite foolish as he is unable to verify the information he obtained from second-hand sources. Evidence from the OLSX organisers, who operate a sign-in/sign-out register for the tents suggest the actual occupancy rate is around 70%.

Lastly, here's something for all you people thinking OLSX is just a bunch of students/benefit scroungers:

Another camper, from Bristol, said many of his fellow demonstrators were working people, rather than students or professional protesters, who were trying to balance their jobs with their activism. That meant, he said, that they sometimes had to leave the camp.

"People have to juggle between days when they're working and days when we're here," he said. "I'm self-employed. Most of the people are here because they're choosing to be here. Most of the tents are left open for other people to use."

Robin Smith, a 48-year-old former Conservative councillor for Wokingham town council, said he was one of many part-time protesters at the camp.

"I'd say about 25% of the people go away and come back. There are lots of normal middle-class people turning up and helping but they have to go back home and some people come once and go away," he said.

"They've got jobs and a family to keep, so they've got to look after their kids or go to work. I met one guy who comes in then goes home to go to work."
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PermaBanned said:
About twelve metres.

Because we live in a Capitalist world, any attempt to counter inequality will ultimately end in failure. That's just one of the reasons why i question the effectiveness of most charities.

Because we wouldn't live in a Capitalist world.
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Oh PermaBanned, I used to think just like you, I really did. You just have to read a little and stop answering with the indignancy of the usual leftie.

There seems to always be this tendancy with lefties to never really answer a question, it's always an emotional and irrational response of 'how can you possibly think like that?', 'lol', 'you're wrong' and various other overarching themes with no real evidence or well structued arguments.

Capitalism HAS changed the world for the better. It has some flaws, less so than other systems. Capitalism goes hand in hand with Western liberal democracy. I agree that there are some changes that need to be made, it is a careful balancing act. What we're seeing now is capitalism at its worst.

As is being discussed above regarding your involvement with the left, perhaps try writing to your MP or indeed voting for parties that represent your interests. That is the nature of democracy.

I noticed some pages back (I'll likely misquote now) that you stated something along the lines of how the majority of the voting population are 'stupid'. Spoken like a true socialist, power to the few eh? Socialism is built on greed as much as capitalism.
 
PureAppleJuice said:
Oh PermaBanned, I used to think just like you, I really did. You just have to read a little and stop answering with the indignancy of the usual leftie.

There seems to always be this tendancy with lefties to never really answer a question, it's always an emotional and irrational response of 'how can you possibly think like that?', 'lol', 'you're wrong' and various other overarching themes with no real evidence or well structued arguments.

Capitalism HAS changed the world for the better. It has some flaws, less so than other systems. Capitalism goes hand in hand with Western liberal democracy. I agree that there are some changes that need to be made, it is a careful balancing act. What we're seeing now is capitalism at its worst.

As is being discussed above regarding your involvement with the left, perhaps try writing to your MP or indeed voting for parties that represent your interests. That is the nature of democracy.

I noticed some pages back (I'll likely misquote now) that you stated something along the lines of how the majority of the voting population are 'stupid'. Spoken like a true socialist, power to the few eh? Socialism is built on greed as much as capitalism.
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Socialism is not build on greed.

Wiki quote.

Socialism /ˈsoʊʃəlɪzəm/ is an economic system in which the means of production are commonly owned and controlled cooperatively; or a political philosophy advocating such a system.

Some socialists may be out of work scroungers, but I think you will find a majority (most out of work scroungers are not politically motivated at all either way) would actually lose out in socialism.

I'd support a more even distribution of wealth (as a top 10% taxpayer), which would directly reduce my standard of living.

Don't assume that all who support the distrubtion of wealth are those without it.

The same as not all right-wing capitalist supporters are rich.

Capitalism has it's uses & was required for the progression of the species earlier in our development & still has some uses now.

But as technology progresses, capitalism will stagnate & become useless.

One thing which nobody can deny is that automation will continue as technology progresses (either AI or robotics) - once a certain number of the workforce will be displayed by automation there will no longer be enough people earning a wage to continue cyclic consumption.

While I don't believe socialism is the right method either (it's attempting to put a band-aid a system which is flawed by design) some aspects are preferable to "free market" capitalism.

Besides, it's naive to think we live in a capitalist society when we clearly live in a corporatist one.
 
doofer said:
I think it is due to the insulating properties of the Tents, you know they have a double-skin right? the outer one will be cold and not show up on Thermal imaging, but hey I look forwards to your explanation :)
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I would have thought that the camera can read a thermal surfaces temp. Now being that the person is behind the temt, then the temp of the visible part of the body is being shown, and the temp of the tent is being shown. Obviously there is no one in the tent and why it is showing as blue, but being that the person is standing behind the tent, the thermal camera cannot read non visible things and thus isnt showing the persons body temp.

No?
 
elmarko1234 said:
Besides, it's naive to think we live in a capitalist society when we clearly live in a corporatist one.
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This is the key imo - if you imagine a sliding scale with absolute socialism on one side and absolute capitalism on the other, every successful economy that has ever been has been somewhere in the middle third of that scale - a mixed economy. Over the last 30 or so years however, the UK and USA in particular have been sliding toward absolute capitalism - this period is known as The Great Regression where income and living standards for the vast majority of people has got worse, and while the top 1% of earners have got richer they still have to live in the damaged society they have inadvertently helped create, so still suffer as a result.

Meanwhile the countries that have resisted moving toward absolute capitalism e.g. northern European countries such as Germany and Denmark are in a much better position. These countries tend toward long term investment, R&D, and vocational training for young people as opposed to the get rich quick schemes on the City of London and Wall Street. Their economies are based on having lots of successful small and medium sized businesses and not a few global behemoths who have massive power and influence and aren't afraid to use it to get governments to do what they want.

To summarise, the question isn't capitalism or socialism? it's what mix of socialism and capitalism do we want in our economy? The answer based on the evidence from other countries is more socialist aspects but not much more.
 
scorza said:
This is the key imo - if you imagine a sliding scale with absolute socialism on one side and absolute capitalism on the other, every successful economy that has ever been has been somewhere in the middle third of that scale - a mixed economy. Over the last 30 or so years however, the UK and USA in particular have been sliding toward absolute capitalism - this period is known as The Great Regression where income and living standards for the vast majority of people has got worse, and while the top 1% of earners have got richer they still have to live in the damaged society they have inadvertently helped create, so still suffer as a result.

Meanwhile the countries that have resisted moving toward absolute capitalism e.g. northern European countries such as Germany and Denmark are in a much better position. These countries tend toward long term investment, R&D, and vocational training for young people as opposed to the get rich quick schemes on the City of London and Wall Street. Their economies are based on having lots of successful small and medium sized businesses and not a few global behemoths who have massive power and influence and aren't afraid to use it to get governments to do what they want.

To summarise, the question isn't capitalism or socialism? it's what mix of socialism and capitalism do we want in our economy? The answer based on the evidence from other countries is more socialist aspects but not much more.
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Indeed, I always find it odd that people forget that the most capitalist country's in the world are those most in debt & struggling.

The more socialist country's of the world are doing much better, with higher education levels, lower crime rates, lower unemployment & a higher overall quality of life.

Edit - Before anybody starts trying to say that China was socialist they should read up on what socialism actually entails - socialism does not require an authoritarian state restricting freedom of speech to function , look at Norway.

As I said before, socailism isn't the solution - but I genuinely believe many people have been indoctrinated to hate it (as a side effect of Americans cold war anti-communism/socialism propaganda) - which has permeated modern western culture/media.

The irony is that the only reason we have a welfare state in most modern western cultures is because it improves productivity overall (or is required to keep society cohesive).

If we reduced social care to levels in the USA we would have to contend with prison/crime rates to match it - at £50,000 per year + to house one prisoner it makes sense to give people small amounts of money to keep down crime.
 
Does anyone know what time this picture was taken?

stpaulscamp.jpg


If it's in the night and the ambient temperature is 14-15 degrees... it seems awfully warm for what has been a cold week in London?
 
What is the massive deal about tent occupation? So what?? Anyhow, empty tents would be easier for the street cleaners to pick them up and throw them in the skip, right? :)

Also, the thermal imaging circus is a joke. With those images there is no standard cross reference - i.e. an image of a tent known to be occupied with a person(s). There is also no consideration of so many other factors i.e. emmisivity properties of the tents, time left unnocupied, time of day, air gaps, atmospheric deviations such as cold/warm winds. The whole debate needs to be dropped.
 
Jonny69 said:
Does anyone know what time this picture was taken?

If it's in the night and the ambient temperature is 14-15 degrees... it seems awfully warm for what has been a cold week in London?
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On Sunday night on the way home from my Mrs parents house, the outside temp around the M25 was about 12~13 degs.

I remember this as I was talking to the Mrs about how its all sorts of wrong being that temperature at this time of year.
 
But another thing; if it is indeed taken at 11pm is the press expecting everyone on a 24hr protest to be tucked up in their tents by 11pm? I'm not siding with the protesters, but this story is getting more ridiculous by the minute.
 
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