Bit of a job dilemma I'd like some opinions on...

Sacred

Sacred

Sacred

Associate
Joined
8 Oct 2005
Posts
179
Hi guys

I've come here because I know there is quite a vast plethora of that constitute these boards and was hoping someone could help me with my job dilemma.

It may be a long one...

I'll start out by explaining the background.

  1. Graduated last year (2010)
  2. Started Working as a Web Developer for a Social Media Company (Syncapse)
  3. Was unfortunately let go as they shrunk their London team
  4. Luckily found a job within a week with a small startup company in the same field (thanks to a friend)
  5. Worked for them for a month for free but agreed to stay with them in May.
  6. Signed a contract - for quite a bit less than I was getting paid - I figured and was told it would change within a few months as new business came in
  7. It's now been almost 6 months with no pay rise on the horizon, I have brought it up but its a touchy subject as we are currently seeking investment (close to getting it) and a lot of the other members work for next to nothing (but as they were there at the start, have a share in the company)
  8. At the same time I was let go from my first job, I interviewed at Allianz for a paid internship. They're a huge insurance/financial services company you may have heard of.

Now, my problem is this:

I initially told Allianz I couldn't do the internship as money was an issue (it was) and needed to be getting paid a decent wage until I was comfortable.
They told me no problem and to get in touch whenever I felt like as they really liked me.
I did so last month just to see what they had going and they offered me the same internship (6months) starting in Decemeber.

Now, it's not all about the money with my current company. They have given me more experience that I could have hoped for and they're quite forgiving and flexible in terms of working from home, work hours, etc. (I'm doing my MSc part time too, so need to leave at 5.30 on some days)

I guess I need to put it into pros and cons, but I just think that passing up an opportunity to work for a company like Allianz would be silly, but I also don't want to burn any bridges with my current guys because they've been good to me.

I also have a problem in that I don't see myself as a developer forever, my skills are somewhat limited (maybe I just don't believe in myself) and I was always looking to get into more of a project management role (leaning toward the technical side).
The role at Allianz is for a Junior project manager.

As I say it's not about the money but I don't see any mention of more money on the horizon and any time I bring it up during a 1-to-1 meeting I get told that there will be bonus options and they're looking into giving me some stock options (5k). But in all honesty this just sounds to me like a fob-off because they don't think I'm business savvy.
The paid internship works out at about the same amount of money each month, minus about 200, which is do-able for me. But also doesn't say much about my company's valuation of me in some ways.

I'd welcome a sweat-equity type deal where I didn't get a raise for say 2 years but got a percentage of the company. But it hasn't been put on the table.

I originally welcomed staying with a smaller company because it allows me to grow with them and take a more senior role when they do grow...

I'm sorry if this post sounds all over the place but it's probably quite an accurate representation of my mind at present.

I was told by the guy I interviewed with at Allianz that graduate interns do tend to get taken on in one role or another (not always in the exact role they came in for originally) and that even if I decided not to carry on or wasn't taken on, having Allianz on my CV will open a lot of doors.

I'm 26 now, not exactly young and kind of want to start moving in a proper direction and stop being stagnant which is why I am leaning toward the internship to just give me a bit of a fresh glimpse and perhaps open some doors...


Please let me know what you guys thinks

Appreciate all advice and opinions
 
Allianz for me.

1) You get to work in a genuine large company (ive worked at a similar sized competitor), the level of exposure you can get there in project roles is good
2) There are always opportunities in places like that, if your there and get noticed you stand a good chance of somethig else
3) CV, multi nats, large FTSE cos etc will always look better on your CV than small independants
4) Project manager will have the opportunity should you decide its the career for you to see any number of large cos and has very good earnings potential
5) You see the other side of the coin, small (hopefully business savvy) vs large professional. You may see that you like / dislike one dramatically vs the other.
 
I can see where you're coming from and how you can have a lot of affection for this small company giving you a chance but you do have to look after yourself in life.

You have spoken to them several times and they've made offers for the future but if they aren't put in writing it is worth nothing. They have had amply opportunity to make a decent offer for you and failed.

I think you should go for Allianz, they seem to have been understanding so far and have some faith in your abilities so should be understanding with your continued studies. It's also the direction you want to go in so why delay.

You need to have a sit down with your current company and don't ask them to offer you anything as it will seem like a threat, explain you can't afford to live on promises for the future and have to leave, keep them sweet and don't get swayed by bigger promises - it would be a good idea to write down before you go in what kind of money would be worth staying with them for but it would have to be more than decent I think from what you have said. And I don't think they will come up with it.
 
I'd go with Allianz for sure, you'll get lots of opportunity there.

Be nice to the current company though saying that you simply cannot pass up this opportunity and thank them for the time with them.
 
You could always go into your next one to one and lay it down to your boss that you're considering leaving as none of the things promised previously and regularly are forthcoming, you don't see them happening at any time soon and you've been offered the Allianz job. Tell them you haven't accepted the Allianz job as you don't think it's fair to leave them without giving them a chance to keep you, be that a wage increase, stock options or whatever. If they're not truthful and fob you off with promises, get said promises in writing (or they're little more than lip service) or be prepared to leave.
 
Guys appreciate the responses. Really helping me in weighing the two up.
Everyone I've spoken too about it say Allianz too, even if only for the experience. So I guess it seems like a no-brainer right now.


beh said:
How optimistic are you about this small startup? Ignoring the money, how's the job satisfaction?
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The job satisfaction is ok, I do get a lot more responsibility than someone at my level would get. I get to sit in on meetings and have input. Though I don't really believe I get taken seriously in these meetings. I actually believe they just have me there to give me a glimpse. It's frustrating though because many of the things I input get implemented in one way or another at one point after almost in a "Good idea, glad I thought of it!" cartoon moment.

I have spoken to them about getting processes sorted for certain tasks (requirement aquisition, having tech guys sit in on meetings to spec properly and not give estimates plucked out of the air, etc). They are quite bad in this area as they believe they are all relatively technical and can do it themselves.
It's just bad practice and I have mentioned numerous times about setting up a solid and documented process for these points, even starting them off on some of the documentation. Problem is, I get lumbered with a lot of the tiring front-end work that nobody else wants to do - it's what I'm better at as I am good in photoshop and a reasonable developer so can straddle the design/developer fence. But as a result I rarely have time to do anything other than this.
The few times I have taken a break from it and started pushing my ideas I get told to get back to what "they need me" to do.

I think I just feel a little stifled in my attempts to have serious input to the company - which isn't really acceptable for a company of about 7 people - feeling more like a workhorse than an active member of the company. It's usually after they've decided something (without me) that I get told what I'm doing. Much of the time is spent backtracking because they DON'T include me in these meetings and I tell them what's what and what IS achievable within a given time.

Overall I'd say it's frustrating working here because of the above and the feeling that I don't get taken seriously.

davestar_delux, I think you summed it up pretty neatly in your first line. I do have a sense of loyalty toward them as they took me under their wing. But at the end of the day I'm sure they saw it as getting someone who has little or no option than to stay with them, for cheaper than someone with my skills but a little further on in their career would be worth.
 
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How long do you expect to be able to stay with the startup? How does that compare to only a certain 6 months with Allianz?
 
If you decide to take the allianz role, you need to be prepared for when you hand in your notice to your current company.
You know the company well and work for buttons, those types of people are hard to find! The hassle of recruitment for a small company is a nightmare. Know in your mind what it would take for you to stay there as well, you might end up getting it!
 
I'd go for Allianz as well on teh basis that I was in a similar position about 7 years ago.

In a nut shell I went to do an engineering/research job that was a collaboration between a University and a spin-out company which was aiming big but didn't have the funds. After the initial two year contract ran out I was then taken on permenantly and thats when things began to go pear-shaped; the funding dried up and costs were slashed and everyone was made redundant - well all except myself and the boss as I was the only one who knew how to make it work - and even then I was on a continual one-month notice that was extended each month as they found a bit more money.

Through-out this I was always looking for jobs and eventually found one with a big multi-national FTSE 100 company - took it in a heart beat and never looked back. The biggest thing that made it worthwhile was job security and prospects in such a large company abnd sometimes piece of mind can be such a stress reliever.

There were equity options in the other company but because of what happened that never came to fruitation.
 
Docaroo said:
I'd go with Allianz for sure, you'll get lots of opportunity there.

Be nice to the current company though saying that you simply cannot pass up this opportunity and thank them for the time with them.
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I'd do this.

I'd leave on good terms without giving any negative reason, such as money, for leaving. So that if anything at Allianz didn't work out or you weren't taken on you could always return to them or at least try.
 
BennyC said:
I'd do this.

I'd leave on good terms without giving any negative reason, such as money, for leaving. So that if anything at Allianz didn't work out or you weren't taken on you could always return to them or at least try.
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Funny enough, many people have said similar to me. Not to mention money.
Essentially, it's not really about getting loads of money, it's more about the potential to earn more and be in a position where I feel appreciated and have better future prospects.
I like the guys individually but I feel like their caretaker, doing the jobs nobody really wants to do but are essential. Then getting patted on the back and given a banana like a well trained monkey.
I am learning a lot, which is the main argument for staying, but I also feel there is a bunch of hot air around what I am 'promised'.

A colleague of mine that brought me into this company (who has since left because he didn't like the way things we're being run) was originally promised to be given a fair price on buying a 5% share in the company (some 30k) when joining.
After he joined they told him they now value their company higher and that same 5% share would now be 45k. Ever since then he didn't feel like he could trust any of the guys here.

This stuck with me because when I was 'promised' a share option, it just seems to me like a nonsense to keep me in false hope.

I'm not sure I even trust the point they make to me about being in a good position to move up when other people come in. I believe they will eventually hire someone more senior to me and I will have to answer to him. It's not that I have a massive problem with that as I'm still pretty junior and appreciate some mentoring, it's just the false hope and trying to make me believe nonsense to just keep me sweet.

I think I could probably continue to work here for a few years if I stay as opposed to 6 months certain at Allianz. That is a point too, but I also believe in those few years I will still be kept under their thumb and not really allowed to gain any real stake in the company - position or equity-wise.

I could work the angle of trying to get my company to make me an offer, but I honestly don't think they can afford to give me any more now. I talked about wanting to make an agreement to increase my salary to my desired amount once investment is secured (in the next 6 weeks or so).
But I got the fob-off as I said earlier.

I've even wondered if they may even have already secured the investment (of around 300k) but are just not telling anyone (or just me) because they know most people will ask to be paid accordingly.
 
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If you do decide to go at least have a wishlist in place should they ask you what you want to stay.
I always recommend this to people as it shows willing and that you are open to staying.
Dont be silly but be realistic, good things to negotiate at this sort of junction are development committment (eg training) and contract terms such as a longer notice period, better redundancy payments etc. Of course money, but the other things can make a big difference, you have them listening properly, now is the time to strike!
They can only say no, and you just go "shame, oh well at least we talked about it"
 
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