Take a bow, mighty conservative Britain, the workhouses are back
- Thread starter oulton
- Start date
I would not say people are strong armed into it for no good reason, the official guidance suggests this programme should be used/suggested for those who have no work experience at all, its not about sending as many as possible, its about sending those where lack of experience is their primary barrier to finding work.
It is already targeted at all levels of businesses, the placements are arranged on a local level by job centre staff, 'we' are crying out to find enough placements and enough variety, its not just big firms doing this.
One of the problems to get companies to take people on placement is the poor standard of candidate they have received in the past, people with other barriers who would not do a good job on placement. Candidates for the type of placements that are being discussed are vetted properly to ensure they are people who genuinely have the capability and motivation to go and do the job well when on placements.
The voluntary sector is already a massive source of work experience through voluntary work that is heavily utilized by job centres, for the more general voluntary offers (go read DWP press releases about the 'work together' initiative) as well as more formal organized placements.
Cheap labour to big business fascilitated by the state and it's use of force isn't artificial?
Of course you can argue this, but the work experience placements are not never ending (one after the other for months on end), people get offered proper jobs if they perform well, this is obviously far less artificial than creating a job solely and entirely funded by the taxpayer?
That's how I got my first jobs but for some people this will not happen, a simple case of demand versus opportunity, the reality of the jobs market makes it so, whether we like that or not. The people that get ahead are the people who put themselves out.
As an aside, those advocating more community service type activities - The job centre has programmes for this, for those shown to be less motivated to take up placements voluntarily or engage in any activity to gain useful experience, but the article this thread is about is really for proper placements where people are expected to gain skills and experience and the chance to prove they can do a proper job to a genuine employer. This is not a 'work for your dole' scheme as implemented, at least not how it is run and provided in my area. They are genuine placements often with the opportunity of a job at the end.
I think there are enough complaints about the levels of service and wrong advice to warrant some creditance to people being misinformed. I experienced it myself unfortunately a very long time ago admittedly. Hopefully it isn't widespread, but people do get poor advice from some people in large public bodies.
Why is it not being portrayed as such? How does the tendering process for potential business partners take place?
I can sympathise with the first part. Out of interest do you have an approximate figure on the percentage of business utilization of DWP for recruitment?
Yes, and it is likely to increase inline with other Government policy that is why it would make sense to tie in those policies for synergy.
Ok I'll take this at face value at the moment through goodfaith, but I think as the saying goes the proof is in the pudding. It will be interesting to see if these permanent positions materialise.
Which is why I have to question why they delay the process and not just recruit from an ample labour market. It may be some kind of benevolence, but they in effect already do this by taking people on under terms of probation.
I think there should be, but across the spectrum and with public maintence or improvement schemes. Very unlikely here due to vested interests all round, but it is succesful in other places I've been to.
Biohazard - Idon't disagree about people being misled, the whole benefits system is a mess frankly...the complexities and caveats surrounding everything is too much to bear. It does not make my job any easier! But more to the point it does not help the standard and consistency of customer service that is delivered. Improvements can and should be made across the board. I think universal credit can help if implemented well...
I need to get some shut eye as I'm at work tomorrow, I will address your points in more detail tomorrow if you like, but as you asked about statistics on utilization of DWP services for recruitment....during my training it was suggested that as few as 30% of the available jobs at any particular time will get advertised with Jobcentreplus. There is a lot of effort to capture employers and work more in partnership, but there are many factors that lead to this seemingly low figure.
The fact of the matter is that some employers will simply not think to advertise with us, and we have to reach out to them. Some employers sadly will even make a conscious decision not to deal with the job centre, based upon their perception of the 'average' job centre candidate (this is ironic given that in a time of recession we see ever greater numbers of talented, capable, skilled and professional people coming through our doors, and the greater levels of service we can provide free of charge to employers such as sifting cvs or application forms, free facilities for interviews or information sessions etc. Compared to the old DSS days, before JCP).
I need to get some shut eye as I'm at work tomorrow, I will address your points in more detail tomorrow if you like, but as you asked about statistics on utilization of DWP services for recruitment....during my training it was suggested that as few as 30% of the available jobs at any particular time will get advertised with Jobcentreplus. There is a lot of effort to capture employers and work more in partnership, but there are many factors that lead to this seemingly low figure.
The fact of the matter is that some employers will simply not think to advertise with us, and we have to reach out to them. Some employers sadly will even make a conscious decision not to deal with the job centre, based upon their perception of the 'average' job centre candidate (this is ironic given that in a time of recession we see ever greater numbers of talented, capable, skilled and professional people coming through our doors, and the greater levels of service we can provide free of charge to employers such as sifting cvs or application forms, free facilities for interviews or information sessions etc. Compared to the old DSS days, before JCP).
I don't think it makes anyone's task easier generally speaking though there are reasons for complexity in some areas of course, and I've got to say 30% is lower than I expected! The last bit, it would be ideal if the department could get that particular message out but I fear the stigma from what you decribe is possibly insurmountable. If you find time go for it, I need to hit the sack too.
It takes over a year to get a human ready for combat in peace time operations, just chuck them in, would you like to command the platoon of JSA allowance....in Afghan
Even the government is cutting back the Army, on BBC news a guy with 22 years in the RAF was training up to be a plumber/gas fitter and said nobody was interested in him, despite 22 years in the RAF.
The mess we are in is not big yet, I mean, do people mention 40 year olds that went through the 80s as a lost generation, its just that the UK is in survival of the fittest era again, things SHOULD ease up in this decade but with the € crisis still over the place, times are not looking going, mid 10s we should see a boom.........
It reduces the number of jobs available. Why would a company choose to hire someone, even at minimum wage, when they could get forced labour for free from the government? A company that had some sort of moral objection to doing so would be at a severe disadvantage compared with companies that didn't, since companies that didn't would have a far smaller wages bill.
Some degree of mandatory work in some sort of public service, maybe, but not as a freebie to private employers. The conditions are far better than the workhouses, but the principle (and the attitudes behind it, as expressed repeatedly on these forums) are exactly the same.
Soldato
- Joined
- 29 Jul 2004
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- 7,167
Except its not 57 a week is it, when you get your rent and council tax paid for you as well.
Then in a lot of cases, its vastly more than minimum wages.
"Riotchavscum" are not socialists - they are not politically inclined either way & don't vote.
I think you will also find "Riotchavscum" are not currently involved in these protests, they may be hippy douches some of them - but not "Riotchavscum".
Are you that much of a tool you think socialism is a swear word? (from watching all those american TV shows).
Next you will be calling it "communist".
Just because you did, it does not mean that everybody can.
Is it really that hard to get into your head?, each person has different natural levels of being able to hand negative influences, bad experiences & stress.
While some may learn how to fight against the disadvantage, others may not.
You strike me of somebody who knows nothing about psychology - which in the case of understanding motivation (or lack of in this case) is pretty important.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis
This is one of the many logical fallacies you are suffering from.
Well, if you can't standardise the way somebody grows up & develops - as a society we need to accept that fact this is how it is.
Not everybody get's the same chances & therefore should look at the situation objectively & logically (as opposed to blaming them for being the product of a bad environment).
I simply wish society to take some responsibility & stop creating more of them.
It's easy to say that they "need to stop feeling sorry for themselves".
But do you know anything about learned helplessness?.
Learned helplessness, as a technical term in animal psychology and related human psychology, means a condition of a human person or an animal in which it has learned to behave helplessly, even when the opportunity is restored for it to help itself by avoiding an unpleasant or harmful circumstance to which it has been subjected.
Learned helplessness theory is the view that clinical depression and related mental illnesses may result from a perceived absence of control over the outcome of a situation.
A test was done on a number of dogs involving electrical shocks (not nice but a long time ago).
The dog was electrocuted repeatedly - regardless of what it did (on a metal plate) - after prolonged periods of time the animals stoped even trying to get out & would just sit on the plate whinging & taking the pain - even when the cage was left open.
The dog confidence in it's ability to improve the situation & had "given up".
What's more striking is that other dogs could learn this behaviour my simply observing it happen to another animal.
Tests have been done on people & it turns out that exactly the same principle applies.
You have kids growing up in an area full of "lazy dole dossers", out of work people, criminals, poverty - these people are learning this behaviour & it societies fault.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
These "lazy scum" require training & cognitive therapy.
Sounds like your not happy having to work for your free money!?
Count your self lucky, if the government represented the opinions of most of the general public you would either be in National Service or picking litter up and cleaning up the communities.
"Learned helplessness" is only a theory. Wikipedia clearly states that. You can't use theories as conclusive facts. And the thing about being human is that you tend to have other psychological traits that would help counteract it anyway... drive, ambition, work ethic, morals.
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most people in the world have no choice as there are no benefits.... maybe set up farms so people out of work (for longer than x months) can grow food to feed themselves those unable to work removing the burden from the workers?
makes me sick to think I work so people can spend years not working...
Associate
- Joined
- 1 Feb 2009
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People being made to work to try and get them off benefits? I dont see how or why there is a problem with this?
Thanks for changing the definition of a joke phrase that I invented.
They're do-gooder protesters, many of them were involved in the student and London riots over the past year. They view this government as a disease. Riotchavscum is the perfect word to describe them.
No. I dislike loud and extreme socialists, just like the vast majority of people in the Western world.