Sometimes I'm ashamed to be British...

Remanding someone is hardly Guantanamo tactics ddog.

While I'm not convinced that she should have been remanded, she was hardly diplomatic about her anti immigration stance and remanding in custody before conviction isn't unlawful.

Would you unload abuse at all non white faces on public transport given your stance on immigration ?
 
The video of the woman ranting against black and Polish people ("What has this country come to? ... with loads of black people and load of ****ing Polish") on the Croydon to Wimbledon tram has caused quite a stir, generating quite a storm on social media and swiftly leading to an arrest. But I have to say it strikes me as one of the less shocking videos I've seen in my lifetime. Compared to footage of guys filming themselves attacking "pakis" on the tube, the storm over this video (which contains explicit comments some viewers may find offensive) looks no worse than an argument over whether X Factor tweeters should be publicly flogged or not.

In fact, it reminded me a little of the brilliant sketch by Stewart Lee where his nan says: "It's political correctness gawn mad Stew". I can imagine the woman leaving the tram complaining that she couldn't even talk about immigration in her own country.

Still, I was indignant about the incident until I saw the backlash on Twitter. Piers Morgan was calling for the woman to be deported, some asked for her to be locked up, while others said her child should be taken away. And those are only the printable responses.

I hate to write an article defending such a woman but I think calling for her to be arrested and then prosecuted is over the top. I don't think such behaviour is acceptable or have a problem with condemning it. My issue is that calling for the law to get involved is about the worst way to deal with such incidents. And there are several reasons for this.

First, the law has little impact. The Race Relations Act made it illegal for organisations to discriminate but you can count the number of successful prosecutions on your fingers. It works much better in tightly defined instances of outright discrimination rather than hate speech.

What actually changed attitudes against racism was a shift in popular culture pushed by brave people. The people who joined together in solidarity against skinheads (at Cable Street in the 30s and Southall in the 80s) changed attitudes. Rock Against Racism shifted popular attitudes. Love Music Hate Racism changed attitudes. The Anti-Nazi League did. But trying to push for better social attitudes through the law is a futile task. Popular condemnation and viral ****-takes work far better instead.

Second, you may argue she can already be prosecuted under the Public Order Act or a "breach of the peace" but the law is currently an overbearing ass. It allows the police to make an arrest if someone feels "insulted". The same laws allow them to detain political activists and make arbitrary arrests.

In short, the very law that some people are cheering here can easily be used against them. Do you really want to give police the willingness to arrest people simply for having an argument?

Third, laws that criminalise hate speech almost always backfire on minorities themselves. A few years ago British Muslim organisations campaigned vigorously for a law against religious hatred, hoping it would stop the BNP from using them as electoral fodder. Labour passed the law but it did little to stop the BNP. Instead, most of the people prosecuted under the law were – you guessed it – Muslims.

There are other examples too. When Sikh playwright Gurpreet Bhatti was criticised by Sikh activists for her play Behzti in Birmingham in 2005, one Sikh group said they were planning to get her charged with racial hatred against Sikhs.

I have no problems with laws against outright discrimination. But when crafted against inciting hatred or "breaching the peace" – they almost always work against minorities and other vulnerable people rather than for them.

And let's be honest, the woman was just sitting there with a child on her lap. She offended people but posed no threat and didn't harm anyone (the person behind her had to be calmed down or it could have turned a lot uglier). It isn't the same as a group of drunken blokes swearing in a train carriage and to criminalise simply being offensive or swearing in public would have half of Britain in jail.

My fourth argument is simply this: I would rather a world where such incidents didn't exists but the world will never be perfect. I would much prefer such racism to be open and visible because there are still far too many Westminster commentators who think racism is a thing of the past.

There are still far too many reporters at tabloids who think their biased reporting doesn't have an impact. It does, and this woman is a product of the opinions of the rightwing press.

You may ask how I would have responded if I was there. Like the other woman, I would say what I've said for years – I'm English whether racists like it or not. Then I'd go back to pretending to playing games on my phone like most people in that carriage.


He has a point tbh.....



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It is actually quite ironic that he was sent to do the popes work.
When i refer to Bigotry i am talking about bigotry towards all religions, Catholicism included.
Other than just general embarrassment? Yes
The XV brigade included Brits, Americans, Canadians and Spanish, the Irish Republicans made a small section of it. I don't see how fighting fascism is hypocritical to what i have been saying?

Iwas merely pointing to the fact you mentioned Dutchman and Danes fighting in an other country yet use a footer with Irishmen who were also fighting in an other country. I did not refer to you being a hypocrite. The trouble with bigotry is it runs deep and is mainly ignorance ......just as racism seems to be ignorance based on fear and tribalism.
Possibly it will always afflict mankind and there seems no easy answer.
I agree with a lot of what you say ........just a little too heated imo;)
 
Some eloquent points, but what happens if those incidents either increase in frequency or through inaction somehow become more acceptable?

I'm not saying that will happen, just posing the question.

I think what he is implying is that by being open and visible it reminds us that such racism still exists.....

Personally, given the response to this woman, I would say that it has the opposite effect from making it more acceptable....

It is a quandary tbh, one I haven't fully processed or made an opinion on yet...
 
Remanding someone is hardly Guantanamo tactics ddog.

While I'm not convinced that she should have been remanded, she was hardly diplomatic about her anti immigration stance and remanding in custody before conviction isn't unlawful.
In your experience how often is someone remanded in these sort of circumstances? Very rarely if ever I bet?

Would you unload abuse at all non white faces on public transport given your stance on immigration ?
No as I don't want to be stabbed or imprisoned. Happily I don't have to take public transport anyway.
 
That's putting it lightly. Scotland's problems with sectarianism and racism are not as widespread as you fear, and there are certainly a lot of lessons to be learned from the inclusive civic society here.

It is generally known for it, as are traveling support.

No one is denying there is an issue just how widespread it is. The truth is the vast majority of people have no interest in these small minded bigots.

Then that's like saying the woman on the tram should just be ignored because 'people have no interest in small minded bigots'

I learnt all kinds of hatred at football terraces as a child so I would dispute that.

Even then that isn't the problem, but the relationship between clubs - particularly the old firm - and sectarianism in Scotland. There is a link and it is unacceptable.

Edinburgh do have teams of Irish background, and there is no where near the level of issue as seen in Glasgow.

You learn a lot more in your household than you do at 90 minutes a fortnight.

Football is just the excuse. Football doesn't help matters. What doesn't help is the fact it was allowed to go on for so many years in Scotland as just one big joke.

Yet in Edinburgh we witnessed 'an alleged' assault on someone on a football park?

Where do you get factual analysis on inbred racism? You can't, you can only look at where it surfaces and that is by in large the minority and not the normal trend.

Racism is naturally inherant

That accuses a member of her staff, not her herself. I can't find the quote either. I think Christine would take your accusation quite seriously.

No it doesn't, her staff member is claiming it was what she said "where she is alleged to have said in reference to Mr Rumbles : “It’s because he’s a ****inc Catholic”."

Seriously, do you read anything?

You take an article trying to dismiss the valid claims of rational fans about the comments made at football matches as some sort of justification that Scotland is inherrently racist, it depends entirely upon context and while I am very critical of the press in Scotland I can't say it has an inherrently widespread and overt anti-catholic agenda. If it has, unfortunately it is something that I haven't noticed.
So you think it is ok to sing a song asking a bunch of immigrants and descendants of immigrants 'why dont you go home?' ?



Most people are and I've said as much before I don't think a lot of people could be proud of it but it is the actions of a minority people. This has nothing to do with your accusation, the UK constitutional arrangements are not because of your claimed absolute ingrained Scottish racism.


It's not calling you a name but you are a hypocrite, you announce yourself as of being from immigrant decent and that your wife moved here which you are both more than entitled to do but then complain about others doing the same for the impact it has on you. You accuse me of looking down my nose at others when you deride millions of people you do not know.

Neither am I anti English as you infer, this is just trolling crap. "Grandstanding" to racist ***** about ideology is nothing to do with being against a whole sovereign nation and it's people. Get real.

Yeah you know what though, see this minority that you keep going on about, why not try do something about it. This woman on a tram was a vocal minority and she has spurred dozens of threads on messageboards around the country.

And no, i complain about positive discrimination. All types of discrimination is wrong! That makes me anything but a hypocrite. Positive discrimination only fuels the right wing and gives them more power. I am for an equal society, someone shouldn't get preferential treatment because they are different, everyone should start on an equal footing. If that makes me a hypocrite in your eyes, then your definition is about as warped as the one for CI
 
Iwas merely pointing to the fact you mentioned Dutchman and Danes fighting in an other country yet use a footer with Irishmen who were also fighting in an other country. I did not refer to you being a hypocrite. The trouble with bigotry is it runs deep and is mainly ignorance ......just as racism seems to be ignorance based on fear and tribalism.
Possibly it will always afflict mankind and there seems no easy answer.
I agree with a lot of what you say ........just a little too heated imo;)

Indeed, yet i am British, and i have a signature about British people fighting fascism. I could have something about Brits fighting Nazi's and it would be the same thing. Sorry I may have picked you up a bit wrong, no meaning to snap lol

Sorry, i do get a wee bit passionate about it, tbh i think it shows an actual care for this country in that i want to improve it and am passionate about it.

Bigotry, racism, fascism, sectarianism, any ism is a horrible thing. I believe People should be hated on an individual basis, not because of the colour of their skin, the religion they practice. :D

I believe most of it is because of fear, fear of what is different, fear of the unknown and to an extent, fear of own survival. Well not survival in the literal sense, more, self preservation.
 
In your experience how often is someone remanded in these sort of circumstances? Very rarely if ever I bet?

Where local tension is high and death threats are made, as has been the case here, more often than not.

No as I don't want to be stabbed or imprisoned. Happily I don't have to take public transport anyway.

So you agree there is an accepted way of airing your views no matter how unpopular they may be ? I would argue that that lass fell a bit short.
 
Remanding someone is hardly Guantanamo tactics ddog.

While I'm not convinced that she should have been remanded, she was hardly diplomatic about her anti immigration stance and remanding in custody before conviction isn't unlawful.

Would you unload abuse at all non white faces on public transport given your stance on immigration ?

Who has been remanded?

The woman in the video?
 
Where local tension is high and death threats are made, as has been the case here, more often than not.
You know more about it than me, but if someone was making death threats against me, I would hope that THEY would be locked up, not ME! :p


So you agree there is an accepted way of airing your views no matter how unpopular they may be ? I would argue that that lass fell a bit short.
Of course. As has been said she was probably drunk or something.
 
He has a point tbh.....

source

In a wonderfully ironic way, she has probably harmed the anti immigration lobby and the folk on the right will be cringing going 'what the **** is she doing?' cos she is going to be held up as a poster child by the left as an example of the right wing, and the left will just use her at every opportunity to go 'see, look at these nutters' whenever the subject of immigration comes up lol
 
The woman in the tram experience video, not the Manchester train one.

Yes. She was remanded by the court.

There was two? I seem to have missed something

The woman I've been banging on about is the one with the child, who got told to shut up by the other white woman with a baby etc.....I assume it is the Tram woman, Emma something or other...

She has been arrested and remanded?
 
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Then that's like saying the woman on the tram should just be ignored because 'people have no interest in small minded bigots'

No, it's saying the vast majority of people reject sectarianism and have very little interest otherwise. Nothing else. That's what it means, you don't have to pull in some inaccurate analogy.


You learn a lot more in your household than you do at 90 minutes a fortnight.

Most probably, but your problem is arguing in absolutes. You said catagorically that you cannot learn hatred at football.

That clearly is not the case.

Football is just the excuse. Football doesn't help matters. What doesn't help is the fact it was allowed to go on for so many years in Scotland as just one big joke.

Yet in Edinburgh we witnessed 'an alleged' assault on someone on a football park?

Nobody has tried to excuse the problem with being one of just football. What I did do was identify it as being one channel for indoctrination if you would. There are many others, but the situation clearly intensifies when the old firm meet if violence occurs or otherwise. Sectarianism can come in all walks of society like any other mental corruption, but there is no harm in identifying one clear component of it.

Again, nobody has claimed it isn't a problem in the nation but it is most certainly predominantly in the West. You get hate crimes all over Scotland like most countries, but there is an intensity in the West for various reasons.



Racism is naturally inherant

Can you evidence this?



No it doesn't, her staff member is claiming it was what she said "where she is alleged to have said in reference to Mr Rumbles : “It’s because he’s a ****inc Catholic”."

Seriously, do you read anything?

I can't find any of the material it links too, has it been reported in the mainstream?


So you think it is ok to sing a song asking a bunch of immigrants and descendants of immigrants 'why dont you go home?' ?

This is clearly a strawman argument as my feelings are already known. Clearly that is unacceptable.

Again, you cannot justify that the social structure of Scotland is bigoted because of the article of one person.





Yeah you know what though, see this minority that you keep going on about, why not try do something about it. This woman on a tram was a vocal minority and she has spurred dozens of threads on messageboards around the country.

Exactly, and I do things about it.

And no, i complain about positive discrimination. All types of discrimination is wrong! That makes me anything but a hypocrite. Positive discrimination only fuels the right wing and gives them more power. I am for an equal society, someone shouldn't get preferential treatment because they are different, everyone should start on an equal footing. If that makes me a hypocrite in your eyes, then your definition is about as warped as the one for CI

Complaining about the impacts of immigration when your wife is an immigrant is as ignorant as you can get really.

I'm not a fan of descriminition but there are times where positive action is required but that doesn't really relate to this. If you are meaning the Anti-catholic policy in the UK for succession then I entirely agree.
 
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