Universities 2012 on-wards

[GJM]

I've just applied to do a PGCE. Currently have a degree in History. Its going to cost me £9000 to start next Sept. Up from just under £4000 last year.

As you chaps have said in here, the only way to not get to peeved about it is to think of it as a graduate tax. Get the loan and suck it up boyo. At the end of the day if you want to do something like teaching you've just got to put up with it and get on with things.

 

[Gux]

Make sure it's a good uni and well respected, not only that but the course is well respected.
You get some crap unis that have a specific course that is highly sort after.
On the other hand you get great well respected unis, that have some terriable courses which aren't liked.

Make sure you get a good grade and make sure that the course leads to the job you want.
If it goes pear shaped a degree can still be good, lots of jobs/further training still require a degree in pretty much any subject.

But with that much debt I certainly wouldn't of treated uni like I did.

How can I find out if the course is any good and is respected by the employers? I already tried to find any information if the course is any good but I am not getting anywhere. Only thing I found is the about the university etc.

Here is the course details if you are interested.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/undergraduate/...th_Industrial_Placement_(Software_Engineering)

 

[Basher]

Treat it as a graduate tax and forget about it. It's not conventional debt.

True, but it's still a burden. The fact the terms are preferential does not mean it shouldn't be a consideration as to whether Uni is the best route in to the chosen career.

 

[Admiral Huddy]

.. snip..

Thanks for the advice megakid.. Thought provoking and very helpful..

 

[D.P.]

How can I find out if the course is any good and is respected by the employers? I already tried to find any information if the course is any good but I am not getting anywhere. Only thing I found is the about the university etc.

Here is the course details if you are interested.
http://www.ncl.ac.uk/undergraduate/...th_Industrial_Placement_(Software_Engineering)

start somewhere like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Higher_Education_World_University_Rankings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_and_university_rankings

If you want to stay within the UK then I would think very carefully if you want to studysomewhere outside the Russell Group:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russel_Group

Put it this way, if you study Computer science at one of the leading Russell Group universities, preferably do a joint honours with Maths or such like, and get a 2.1 (this is a lot of work), you should have little probalem finding a job and paying back the loan quickly.

I don't mean necessarily Oxbridge - Warwick, Manchester, Edinburgh etc. will all play out excellently.

 

[bhavv]

I'm not entirely sure what he meant, but you can apply for the Masters course whien you apply for your undergrad. Some red bricks (up here anyway) will award a Masters after 4 years whilst others will only give you a Honours after 4 years.
Many engineering courses you apply for the masters but can be put down to the bachelors if you aren't doing well enough in 2nd/3rd year.

Yea I know that, but you still have to pay the same as an undergrad degree.

The degree you are referring to is a 3 year undergrad plus a 1 year masters rolled into one course. This is highly advantageous as you can complete the Masters with a decent grade from your final years progress with only a minimal pass in your first three years.

 

[uk_unbeliever]

It's not really debt in a typical sense though. She'll never have bailiffs knocking on her door asking for money and she will only pay back the loan if she earns over the threshold.

Genuine question- Is there any possibility at all that future governments could simply change the 'deal' when they want / need to? E.G. lower the payback threshold or change the interest calculations in a similar way to changes to pension schemes

 

[Ash-Lee]

Posted in wrong thread. Sorry.

 

[godinman]

Shock as it turns out you can't get something for nothing!

 

[Dave]

Yea I know that, but you still have to pay the same as an undergrad degree.

The degree you are referring to is a 3 year undergrad plus a 1 year masters rolled into one course. This is highly advantageous as you can complete the Masters with a decent grade from your final years progress with only a minimal pass in your first three years.

It's not quite the same thing though - it's an undergraduate "masters" as opposed to a postgraduate one. The undergrad one involves less credits, even though the modules are generally the same - usually this involves an extra essay, or more work required for coursework. A large number (though I cannot quantify it without a bit of research) of people doing science/engineering will apply for the four-year MEng/MPhys/MChem/MMath etc as opposed to the 3-year BEng/BSc course.

In my case I did MEng - 4 year Chem Eng undergrad. You could do a 3 year BEng + 1 year MSc if you wanted to as well, but it seemed pointless when I applied as you needed the MEng as a minimum to become chartered, and (when I applied ) the undergraduate course tuition fee was less than the equivalent postgrad. Plus from what I remember, the people doing the MSc equivalent of our course weren't too clued up on the subjects - coming from different backgrounds (biology, chemistry, geology) and then thrown head-first into Chemical Engineering must have been a bit daunting!

 

[mufc802]

fml..

why are there 5 pages?

BTEC = fail

No university except for the **** ones will accept a BTEC because its a **** qualification

I guess 90%+ of universities are **** then because most accept it. Of course Oxford and Cambridge require additional a-levels, but most universities accept it or at least do with an a-level along side it.

 

[Amp34]

Yeah companies won't take you on for industrial placements if you don't get at least a 2:1 from your first year.

The other point is he missed out the word "relevant", most companies don't care about tour two years flipping burgers if you are going for an engineering placement... A 1st with no prior job will beat a 2:2 with no prior relevant experience every day, unless the attitude of the 1st candidate was terrible.

 

[blu3shad0w]

TBH I think that the new system in having to pay out after the degree is done is a fair one. Ok the problem with it is the amount of fee would have been better at 3k, but it takes the burden of the parents.

I wouldn't be able to afford to pay for my Son to go to university where the fees would have had to be paid up front. This way I can help him when I can afford it, and he won't have to start paying anything back until he is earning above a certain threshold.

so if he isn't getting paid well, no extra money is having to be paid.

 

[Amp34]

I'm not entirely sure what he meant, but you can apply for the Masters course whien you apply for your undergrad. Some red bricks (up here anyway) will award a Masters after 4 years whilst others will only give you a Honours after 4 years.
Many engineering courses you apply for the masters but can be put down to the bachelors if you aren't doing well enough in 2nd/3rd year.



A law degree far from guarantees a well paying job. Medicine is the only one that does that really, and the work/pay rate (at least for FY doctors) probably negates that.

Undergraduate masters =/= a postgrad masters. Don't get them mixed up. In some areas undergrad masters are approximately equivilent to an MSc/MA but in most an MSc will trump an undergrad masters well and truly (just ask the half dozen friends I have that did an MSci (undergrad masters) and then went on to complete an MSc). An MSc will open a lot more doors than an MSci for example.

EDIT: And a reason a lot of sectors see an MSc as better than an undergrad masters is the course length. An MSc is either 2 years of normal university terms (Oct-Juneish) or one year September to September of intensive work. Undergrad masters are just an extension of the undergrad year so one university year (oct-june). 120 credits for the undergrad masters and 180 for the postgrad masters. It's normally more specialised for a certain part of industry too.

 

[atpbx]

Experience is not that important, you will pick it up in no tiem on the job. Put it this way, given 2 near-identical candidates for a job, one with 2 years experiencer and one with none. Obviously the employer will pick the person with experience. Now Imagine someone with a good degree and 2 years experience vs someone with only 2 years experience, the person with the degree is much more likely to be hired.

Not to mention the fact that many careers paths require at least a bachelor degree, and many other career paths will be very liomited without a good degree.


I certainly wouldn't worry about that anmount of debt if going to do a good degree at a good university. The debt could be paid back in no time, especially if you are willing to work outside the UK. E.g. a good computer science degree from say Cambridge could get you into a US software firm earning well over $100K starting! Hence US student don't mind acquirign $200K of debt doing a good degree.

My job when the equivalent position is advertised in the company is supposed to require a minimum of a degree level education.

I just have my boggo GCSE's with not particularly outstanding grades as I didn't really give a flying **** at the time.

I seem to be doing ok, they've just offered me a a promotion to regional manager from depot manager, I've not even been there a year yet!
That's not the point however, the point is I don't see how having a degree (this is the only job I've had that's had it as a requirement) would have been of any benefit to me in the position. I know its more of an indication of your general intellect, above anything else, but I don't think its a very good one sometimes.

 

[Amp34]

But from the sounds of it it's not a "technical" role in the university course sense. Being a depot manager (I assume) means you do lots of paperwork and managing of people who are picking/moving boxes. (nothing wrong with that). On the other hand if it's a more technical role in, say, an O&G or computing company then you need to really know at least as much as the people under you, which is where the degree requirement comes in.

Personally I see your post as a prime example of why we should be reducing* places at university and increasing the number of apprenticeships for non technical/less academic roles. As you say, in these roles you canget on perfectly fine without a degree, it's different skills. Someone with a degree in history shouldn't be a better candidate than someone with years of experience working in a depot as staff/junior management.

*By reducing I mean more not funding as many places and concentrating on more traditional courses that industries and society need. The other less needed courses can be less funded/available but not funded.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Would you classify her future income tax liability as an unlimited debt?

if not, why view the student loan, which behaves in exactly the same (but more generous) way as a debt?

Exactly - if you can't pay it it's not like they are going to come round and repossess your car or tv is it?

 

[Nitefly]

I went to have a look at the Times Good University Guide but couldn't access it without a subscription, that's a shame :/

 

[UK-AL05]

But from the sounds of it it's not a "technical" role in the university course sense. Being a depot manager (I assume) means you do lots of paperwork and managing of people who are picking/moving boxes. (nothing wrong with that). On the other hand if it's a more technical role in, say, an O&G or computing company then you need to really know at least as much as the people under you, which is where the degree requirement comes in.

Personally I see your post as a prime example of why we should be reducing* places at university and increasing the number of apprenticeships for non technical/less academic roles. As you say, in these roles you canget on perfectly fine without a degree, it's different skills. Someone with a degree in history shouldn't be a better candidate than someone with years of experience working in a depot as staff/junior management.

*By reducing I mean more not funding as many places and concentrating on more traditional courses that industries and society need. The other less needed courses can be less funded/available but not funded.

It's nothing to do with forcing people do something. You don't want to force a reduction in places.

The main driver of university places, is that a lot of jobs put a requirement of a university degree even though they are not required. First of all stop that, then see places getting reduced without force.

However I guarantee you employees won't do that, and so it will continue. If we forced the action, employers would complain of lack of skills.

Even higher apprenticeships recommend you get a degree eventually...because of this problem

I.e You can do apprenticeship as an accountant, but big4 still put a requirement for a degree down if you want a job with them.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

However, as you know only to well, the uni costs are trebled that of this years intake. I’ve calculated that she’ll come out of the end of the three years with the minimum of £42K debt plus other living costs, travel, interest etc. I had saved a little towards this but nowhere near the kind of costs are they mentioning. All of a sudden reality bites.

It isn't a 'debt' - it is an income contingent tax liability. There is no being 'burdened' with it or anything, it is a negligible deduction from a monthly salary above £21k(?) which is cancelled when you're 40 if you haven't paid it back yet.

It shouldn't scare you or your daughter. Read up on the facts and make sure she isn't put off by the idea