Is evolution a religion?

Catholic Diocese give EXTRA funding on top of that supplied by the LEA to support the dyslexia program within the school, this means more teaching assistants and better facilities than the other non-Catholic schools, the Diocese also contributes around 10% on top of the shool budget for capital projects and educational support that are not funded otherwise.

Also the state isn't wasting resources or money on faith schools as they are also state schools, they recieve (as a rule) additional funding from the diocese....independent schools recieve no state funded.

Is it only 10%? Why do they then get to set the entry criteria for the larger portion of the children attending. The school I want to get my kids in is a CofE and apart from a small percentage of intake from the immediate area, you have to of been going to church, every week, for at least 2 years or you won't stand a chance.
The other school is self-funding and they don't have to let anyone in unless they are Cof E.
 
No, I didnt go to a school where the RE teaching was rubbish, I went to a school that taught a great deal of religion in 'religious education'.

Maybe you dont realize that the curriculum regarding atheism has most likely changed since 1995.

I think we're going to have to disagree on this point, any class on religious education which gives atheism such a cursory treatment doesn't sound all that great to me. It's important to cover religions in religious education but equally it is remiss not to consider other positions relating to religion and atheism is a fairly major one.

I'm aware that the curriculum changes and will continue to change and be shaped but I'm not the one trying to claim that all teaching in RE relating to anything other than religion is poor. Since you're bringing it up though in 1995 I would have been starting secondary school so we're broadly contemporaries in that regard - I was however in the Scottish schooling system.
 
I think we're going to have to disagree on this point, any class on religious education which gives atheism such a cursory treatment doesn't sound all that great to me.

A class on RE that teaches the correct definition of Atheism doesnt sound all that great to you?

Why is that then? RE is a subject where you learn about the religions. As long as atheism is mentioned, and CORRECTLY defined, that is all that is required.

But this has nothing to do with what kids in that class will personally believe about atheists, with negative opinions towards them mostly being handed down from their fundamentalist parents.
 
Ah, I see, so your beef is with schools that deviate from the curriculum, rather than with faith schools?

Why do you keep banging on about faith schools, then? Surely your problem is with bad schools, as I said?

If a school doesnt deviate from the curriculum, then why does it need to be a faith school?

All schools should be completely secular and free from any religious bias, such as selective recruitment of teachers or intake of pupils based on religious beliefs.
 
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If a school doesnt deviate from the curriculum, then why does it need to be a faith schools?

All schools should be completely secular and free from any religious bias.

Ah, so your problem is with faith schools? Yet when pressed on the issue of the government wasting money on them you attempted to shift the goalposts away from that because the issue is an ideological one for you rather than an evidence based one? Is that about the size of it?

So in response to the idea that schools should be completely secular... Why? If it doesn't harm their ability to teach the students, then what argument can you possibly make for this?
 
ideological one for you rather than an evidence based one?

Read my edit, and then this:

Is it only 10%? Why do they then get to set the entry criteria for the larger portion of the children attending. The school I want to get my kids in is a CofE and apart from a small percentage of intake from the immediate area, you have to of been going to church, every week, for at least 2 years or you won't stand a chance.
The other school is self-funding and they don't have to let anyone in unless they are Cof E.

So in response to the idea that schools should be completely secular... Why?

So that their intake of teachers and students is not biased only towards one specific religious group, and so that the schools have religiously mixed teachers and pupils.
 
A non religious secular comprehensive / ex grammar school / now a sports college?

What more exactly does a school need to teach about Atheism other than what I said?

I went to a good school that at least had a religious RE teacher that taught the correct definition of Atheism (a very religiously open minded teacher who attended church / mosque / hindu temples / synagogues and gurudwaras only to further her own knowledge about every religion).

Anyone who genuinely believes that Atheism is anything more than 'not believing in Gods or Deities' are 100% misinformed and ignorant liars.

Bad school then?
 
Is it only 10%? Why do they then get to set the entry criteria for the larger portion of the children attending. The school I want to get my kids in is a CofE and apart from a small percentage of intake from the immediate area, you have to of been going to church, every week, for at least 2 years or you won't stand a chance.
The other school is self-funding and they don't have to let anyone in unless they are Cof E.

Because the level of funding doesn't dictate the selection...the limits imposed reflect the general demographic of the admissions......in any case it is a state school, the funding is voluntary and 10% of the entire school budget in addition to the state funding is a significant amount of money.

I agree that other faith schools have a very strict policy, mainly down to oversubscription.
 
OK, now that's a more interesting point. Do you feel that schools should be able to select their students and staff on any criteria? Or is this limited to just issues of faith? I.e. is this still a purely anti-religion ideological issue for you, or do you feel that no selection is the best policy?

So is the issue that the school shouldn't be limiting it's selections to religious people because it limits better education - see Castiel's posts earlier - to religious folk? But why do religious folk want to send their kids to religious schools if they are so objectionable? You sound like you're trying to eat your cake and have it.
 
A class on RE that teaches the correct definition of Atheism doesnt sound all that great to you?

Why is that then? RE is a subject where you learn about the religions. As long as atheism is mentioned, and CORRECTLY defined, that is all that is required.

But this has nothing to do with what kids in that class will personally believe about atheists, with negative opinions towards them mostly being handed down from their fundamentalist parents.

But my school also did this, it taught all the religions and atheism in RE.

In year 9 prior to GCSE, the first thing we learnt were that:

- A theist is a person who believes in God
- An agnostic is a person who believes that the existence / non existence of God cannot be proved
- An atheist is a person who doesnt believe in any gods.
...snipped for space...
RE teaches nothing more about atheism beyond that.

You don't think this is a cursory treatment of a rather significant position in regard to religion?

Fair enough but as I said we're going to have to differ on this point as that looks like a pretty textbook definition of cursory to me.
 
Bad school then?

Most of the A Level students got Straight A's and went onto study at Cambridge, Oxford, or some other top universities for courses like Medicine or Engineering.

Only two students in my A level class didnt get a single B grade, me being one of those.

You don't think this is a cursory treatment of a rather significant position in regard to religion?
Fair enough but as I said we're going to have to differ on this point as that looks like a pretty textbook definition of cursory to me.

Actually no, I dont believe that teaching 'atheism' requires anything more than simply teaching the correct definition, which too many people here fail to believe.

I would slightly extend teaching of atheism to include:

'Atheism derives from the Greek word 'atheos', meaning without God. An Atheist is a person who does not believe in any Gods or Deities'.

That is all thats really required, but more importantly for people to listen to and learn such a simple fact.
 
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Most of the A Level students got Straight A's and went onto study at Cambridge, Oxford, or some other top universities for courses like Medicine or Engineering.

Only two students in my A level class didnt get a single B grade, me being one of those.

Which school was it Bhavv?
 
Because the level of funding doesn't dictate the selection...the limits imposed reflect the general demographic of the admissions......in any case it is a state school, the funding is voluntary and 10% of the entire school budget in addition to the state funding is a significant amount of money.

Enough to dictate 90% of the admissions, seems a bit odd to me, especially when the demographic for the area is mainly non-religious and the 90% travel a long way to get there.

I agree that other faith schools have a very strict policy, mainly down to oversubscription.

They all seem to have a very strict policy and cetainly round here it's due to them being better schools, the non-religious ones tend to be like warzones. :)
 
Which school was it Bhavv?

I choose not to name the schools or university I went to, for I was the dumbest person in my classes from A levels onwards.

Everyone else studying A Level sciences in my class did better at their A Levels than me, and I got C-C-D grades.

The schools average results are heavily weighed down due to it being a comprehensive and taking on students of all mixed abilities, the majority of which are dumber than me due to the school being in a city where most people are simple thick. But the students that succeed are helped not only by their own intelligence, but also with how great the teachers and teaching facilities are.
 
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Enough to dictate 90% of the admissions, seems a bit odd to me, especially when the demographic for the area is mainly non-religious and the 90% travel a long way to get there.

they do not dictate 90% of admissions....it is about 50% which is representative of the admissions they recieve, about 50% are from Catholic Families. Otherwise what would happen is that all the admissions would be taken by non-Catholics, which woukd leave Catholic children without a place in a Catholic School....which is counter productive.


They all seem to have a very strict policy and cetainly round here it's due to them being better schools, the non-religious ones tend to be like warzones. :)

Quite, however, for me that indicates that the other schools need to be improved, not the faith schools closed.
 
I choose not to name the schools or university I went to, for I was the dumbest person in my classes from A levels onwards.

Everyone else studying A Level sciences in my class did better at their A Levels than me, and I got C-C-D grades.

The schools average results are heavily weighed down due to it being a comprehensive and taking on students of all mixed abilities, the majority of which are dumber than me. But the students that succeed are helped not only by their own intelligence, but also with how great the teachers and teaching facilities are.

My sons school is a comprehensive and doesn't select according to ability....it has better grades and teaching because in part, it receives better funding...thanks to the Catholic Diocese.

I think the better education overall is worth him sitting through mass once a week quite frankly, as for the RE....my sons school gives a very broad education regards RE, including Atheism and Agnosticism in all their definitions, including Secular Humanism, which is actually the valid subject to teach with religions as atheism et al, as you consistently point out is not a religion, it is a philosphical position....I know because I helped formulate the program with the RE teacher.

Don't base your opinon on all faith schools or RE programs on the basis of your own, rather poor one, if what you state is to be believed.
 
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they do not dictate 90% of admissions....it is about 50% which is representative of the admissions they recieve, about 50% are from Catholic Families. Otherwise what would happen is that all the admissions would be taken by non-Catholics, which woukd leave Catholic children without a place in a Catholic School....which is counter productive.

Can't argue there at the moment as I can't find where I read the information.
But I'll find it damn it. :)


Quite, however, for me that indicates that the other schools need to be improved, not the faith schools closed.

Completely agree, I happen to be in favour of religious schools of a particular denomination, until the war-zone that is our local secondary school changes then my kids will continue to go to church regardless of the fact that I am far from religious. Parents have got to do what they have to do though.
 
Well your still mistaken - I learned plenty about Evolution from the Genetics module focusing on the DNA and hereditary side of it. Then there were also two Evolution specific modules on top that could be studied but I didnt take, one module within Human Biology, and another within Earth Science.

A student wishing to learn everything that the University offered on Evolution would pick a Human Biology Major with the compulsory modules including Genetics, the Evolution elective, and the elective module in Earth Science, which covered everything from both geology and chemistry on Evolution. It was from my friend that was doing this specific course that I got a couple of papers regarding organic compounds turning into organic compounds to read, but I really just skimped over them as I found chemistry to hard.

It was a very open minded course structure that allowed students to tailor their studies and module choices to what they wanted to learn.

I'm still mistaken about what?! :confused:

For a start, a human biology degree is not a straight biology degree, the clue is in the name. It's going to be more physiology orientated.

Secondly, in the words of Theodosius Dobzhansky, nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution - evolution was the core of my entire degree. That held true for molecular sciences, microbiology, conversational biology, agricultural biotechnology and genetic engineering, immunology... everything was always linked back to it. How could it not be? I think I only scratched on some of the most interesting evolutionary topics. Hence I would be surprised if a straight biology (not human biology) degree at a decent university didn't pay it some due attention, because it's relevant to everything.

I don't know why I, or anyone else is bothering to argue with you really. How can I take you seriously when I wrote all of this to try and explain something to you:

Let's get rid of the words fact and theory for a brief paragraph. I believe that you can use 'repeatable methods' (observation by experiment) to demonstrate how penicillin works. Our understanding of this is falsifiable, which means it can be shown to be wrong, but it hasn't been. Our understanding of it is comprehensive.

Does this make it 'truthful' or 'factual'? Well, yes and no. YES, in the sense that everything we know supports it and practically speaking it provides the result we expect time and time again. There appears to be very little that we do not understand about it. On the other hand, there will always be a NO, in the sense that our methodology might be wrong and we take assumptions for granted. In microbiology, this includes the very lowest level, the atomic level, as well as higher cellular levels.

For example, when RNA virus immune crops were first planed and grown for harvest in the US, the world had a very clear idea on how this technology worked. The transformed plants would produce viral coat protein in their own tissue and as this would be in such high abundance in each cell, the invading viruses could not unwrap - the plant protein would replace the viral protein and stop viral replication occurring. By your own logic, this would be factual as it could be demonstrated by experiment. Or so we thought.

Over a decade past and in the late 90s, scientists found out this was utter crap. It was shown that this in fact did not happen and nobody had a clue how it was working. All they knew was that it worked. The theory was wrong. It was later discovered that by causing the plants to replicate viral DNA, this was pre-empting the plant's RNA dicer system to shred up the viral DNA before it could replicate - an immunity of sorts. Very clever. But this demonstrates why we do not say theory is factual.

The point it, as there is always the no element, it would be downright foolish to regard scientific theory as providing 'truth'. That would be reading in-between lines to find things that need not be read. Observations and facts are taken to form theories, but those observations themselves can be based on other theories (how the beta-lactam ring breaks down at an atomic level, to use penicillin as an example).

The correct approach to take is to avoid using the word 'truth' when talking about broad scientific subjects altogether, as generally it's completely unsuitable. Whilst things may appear 'factual' in a practical sense, in the context of philosophical conversation broader scientific observations rarely are 'factual' as they are largely based on much theoretical workings. This is not to say that they are not likely to be correct, far from it! Is it simply that science is limited in a philosophical scope - if you are from a scientific background, as you state you are, then you should acknowledge this.

Rather than say 'our understanding of penicillin is factual', it is much better to say 'we have a fully comprehensive understanding of penicillin based on our current observations and our current understandings of the universe'. I would allow you to say the former in a strictly scientific conversation, but not a philosophical one such as this one, because it's grossly inappropriate.
And you wrote this:
I'm not reading all that btw. Actually, I wont read any of it.
You are the absolute king of the trolls.
 
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