Scum of the Earth - Assault pair celebrate after escaping prison

Emlyn_Dewar · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:35

[TW]Fox;21077799 said:
You want to have people executed for being involved in a fight?

Doesn't sound like a simple "fight".
Sounded like a vicious assault... The guy who was just doing the right thing was left a complete mess and the thugs get off with it. (Aside from the one who was already on bail).

Do we really want to encourage this kind of behaviour? The lack of punishment doesn't really do much to put people off it.

Wizzfizz · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:35

Robbo jumping to conclusions once again, shocker.

Robbo · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:36

[TW]Fox;21077839 said:
They didn't 'try to kill him', which is why the jailed person was jailed for GBH and not attempted murder.

This discussion has been had before on here I think. I class kicking someone in the head when they are down and defenceless as trying to kill them. What else can it be, certainly not self defence of any kind.

Wizzfizz said:
Robbo jumping to conclusions once again, shocker.

What?

iamtheoneneo · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:36

Emlyn_Dewar said:
Doesn't sound like a simple "fight".
Sounded like a vicious assault...

"sounds like" does not mean "it was 100% like this"

Robbo said:
This discussion has been had before on here I think. I class kicking someone in the head when they are down and defenceless as trying to kill them?

your mistaken in thinking that you write the laws in this country.

Tefal · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:37

Robbo said:
If we aren't going to put these morons in prison, who are we going to imprison? Actual murderers only?
.

tax evaders.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/oct/24/stevenmorris

A 75-year-old woman who refused to pay a £360 council tax bill because of a long-running dispute over her garden boundary was yesterday jailed by magistrates.

[TW]Fox · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:38

Robbo said:
I class kicking someone in the head when they are down and defenceless as trying to kill them.

Thankfully the law isn't based on what uninformed (about the case) people on the internet class things as.

What else can it be, certainly not self defence of any kind.

This implies you beleive there are only two forms of assault - self defence or attempted murder.

How bizarre.

Robbo · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:40

[TW]Fox;21077886 said:
This implies you beleive there are only two forms of assault - self defence or attempted murder.

How bizarre.

No, but I would like to know what this is actually classed as. GBH isn't really specific.

What do you expect kicking someone in the head when they are on the floor to achieve?

Mr Krugga · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:40

Someone gets badly beaten up on a night out in the UK.

Attackers walk free.

Robbo insinuates they tried to kill the victim.

Shocker.

i-bert · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:41

If they made an attempt to retsrain the attacker then they should have walked free from court. Can't see it though.

[TW]Fox · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:44

Robbo said:
No, but I would like to know what this is actually classed as. GBH isn't really specific.

GBH is 'really serious' bodily harm.

What do you expect kicking someone in the head when they are on the floor to achieve?

Are you seriously suggesting that the average chav giving somebody a kicking has beforehand carried out a rational risk asessement, outlining the expectations they have of the outcome? They are morons, they don't think, they just decide its a good idea to give somebody a kicking. This makes them highly unpleasant people but it doesn't make them attempted murderers.

Once you start, testosterone and adreniline kicks in and who knows where it stops?

Thorper · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:46

Got a text yesterday morning telling me to check the papers...saw this. I know him

He is/was a friend of mine, not seen him for a few years since I moved away from Manc though. Pretty shocked tbh, he was never really the violent type, but heard he started knocking about with some **** (neither of the lads involved, knew them too) who liked to get ****ed up and fight at the weekends...so guess he got roped into it all.

Robbo · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:47

[TW]Fox;21077928 said:
Are you seriously suggesting that the average chav giving somebody a kicking has beforehand carried out a rational risk asessement, outlining the expectations they have of the outcome? They are morons, they don't think, they just decide its a good idea to give somebody a kicking. This makes them highly unpleasant people but it doesn't make them attempted murderers.

Once you start, testosterone and adreniline kicks in and who knows where it stops?

I think there's a pretty fine line between the two really. Intent is no doubt going to be hard to prove in many cases, even if it does exist.

[TW]Fox · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:49

Robbo said:
I think there's a pretty fine line between the two really. Though intent is no doubt going to be hard to prove in many cases, even if it does exist.

It's not intent that you need to prove, its intent to KILL. There was obviously intent to injure and the main perpetrators sentance reflects this. Even the most stupid of chavs don't truely desire to kill somebody for giving them greif over wheelie bins.

You can 'think' there is a fine line between GBH and Murder all you want, it makes not a jot of difference because it isn't the thoughts of us that dictate the law. And rightly so.

CircleFaust · 20 Jan 2012 at 12:53

you can only hope these people live to regret their actions

cheets64 · 20 Jan 2012 at 13:20

Scariest thing is the message its sending out, this was all over north west tv, youngsters will think they wont "do time" for being a **** and attacking someone and its true, attack someone and just get a slap on the wrist.

I was brought up with a lot stronger morals and I never saw anything like this when I was a kid in the mid 90s.

[TW]Fox · 20 Jan 2012 at 13:27

cheets64 said:
I was brought up with a lot stronger morals and I never saw anything like this when I was a kid in the mid 90s.

Because you didn't have access to 24 hour internet news.

Lots of bad things happened in the mid 90s. What about Stephen Lawrence?

Werewolf · 20 Jan 2012 at 13:41

Robbo said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ult-pair-celebrate-after-escaping-prison.html

Very remorseful indeed.

What the hell is wrong with some of our judges?

If we aren't going to put these morons in prison, who are we going to imprison? Actual murderers only?

People who behave like this should be marched back into court and re-sentenced (or preferably shot).

Can I suggest you have a look some time at the sentencing guidelines that Judges generally have to stick to, they even have to write down their reasoning for it, with every factor raised by both the prosecution and defense taken into account (you can even find most judges summaries in the public domain).

I suspect a lot of Judges would love nothing more than to give out longer sentences, but when they know the prison spaces aren't there, and that the guidelines require such things as
Early guilty plea (anything up to half off any sentence after other considerations).
First offenses
Out of Character
etc etc
To be taken into account they're pretty much stuck.

They don't have much chance to give a harsher sentence in normal circumstances (IE fairly routine crimes), the riots led to harsher than normal sentences because they were unusual but they were appealed and it was hit or miss if they would be upheld.

I would like to see the starting point for pretty much any violent crime to be jail, but that would likely require us to have double the prisons.

Pate · 20 Jan 2012 at 13:43

[TW]Fox;21078304 said:
Because you didn't have access to 24 hour internet news.

Lots of bad things happened in the mid 90s. What about Stephen Lawrence?

Possibly not the best example to your first point seeing as you a big deal was made of that chap.

Robbo · 20 Jan 2012 at 13:44

Werewolf said:
Can I suggest you have a look some time at the sentencing guidelines that Judges generally have to stick to, they even have to write down their reasoning for it, with every factor raised by both the prosecution and defense taken into account (you can even find most judges summaries in the public domain).

I suspect a lot of Judges would love nothing more than to give out longer sentences, but when they know the prison spaces aren't there, and that the guidelines require such things as
Early guilty plea (anything up to half off any sentence after other considerations).
First offenses
Out of Character
etc etc

They don't have much chance to give a harsher sentence in normal circumstances (IE fairly routine crimes), the riots led to harsher than normal sentences because they were unusual but they were appealed and it was hit or miss if they would be upheld.

Yes, I shall have a look at that. So you believe it's more the system (the guidelines) than the judges themselves then?

yer_averagejoe · 20 Jan 2012 at 14:03

[TW]Fox;21077748 said:
It doesnt appear to say that he was ONLY jailed because of this.

Indeed, it is a misconception that being on bail means if you put a foot out of place, it is straight to jail, "Do not pass go".

Myself and a friend were attacked by a group of 6 or 7 lads which left my friend hospitalised. 3 of them were caught with convicting evidence, one of whom was on bail. In the end, only one went to prison. Not the guy who was on bail.