Difference between Monitor Audio and B&W

just looked at PMC prices - ouch, bit too much for me


Jano said:
If I had the room for floorstanders... :)

There is another company nearby I think that does deal with PMC speakers, will have to drop them a mail I think. Sticking point certainly seems to be the need for a home demo :( Dealers don't seem to understand when I listen to speakers I really struggle to get any sense of improvement over my M71's.

I've upgraded the amp over the years from entry level Yamaha's, Denons, then to mid level Marantz and Yamaha's and now a top notch Yamaha AV Amp, but the missions still work well. I've demo's £500ish Quads, £500ish B&W's, and listened to relatives Epos ES14's and Monitor Audio Radius HD set ups, and they are all somehow beaten by my (supposedly) rubbish set of £250 missions. Dealers turn their noses up when I explain what I have, yet are flummoxed when what they offer me to demo don't improve on the sound. Even my poxy headphones i carry to work every day cost more than my speakers!
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are the M71's really that good, or is it just due to personal preference that they're better for you do you think?
 
Honestly, I don't know. They were award winning speakers back in 2000/2001, but at the end of the day they were still £150 bookshelf speakers. In fact, I would be surprised if I even paid that much for them. I've tried Quad 11L's in the room and there was little difference, so I can only assume the room either brings out the best in the M71's, and I have no idea how the 11L's work with Yamaha amps, but even in their usual system (NAD BEEC326 stereo amp) there isn't much difference in pure audio playback. Same with the Epos floorstanders. They were £1000ish back in the mid 90's and should wipe the floor with the Mission's, but they dont. Before anyone asks, it's not just me either ;) Several people have listed to my system and been amazed of the sound quality from the speakers, they have no right to sound as good as they do, my Grandad was a sound engineer at the BBC years ago, he's why I got into this, so I would hope he knew what he was talking about!
 
Success - Found a local specialist that will let me have a home demo after having a demo in store, and they stock the PMC db1i's! Lowe, do you have the matching centre PMC DB1MCi?
 
Jano said:
Success - Found a local specialist that will let me have a home demo after having a demo in store, and they stock the PMC db1i's! Lowe, do you have the matching centre PMC DB1MCi?
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Yes, I have the DB1 centre. It's exactly the same to be honest, just with the tweeter mounted in a horizontal plane. :)
 
Was a bit confused, few sites had it listed as 290mm high which didnt look right, but found a manual/tech drawing that confirms it as 155mm. Need to get a little stand made to create space for a centre, my M7C1 is thin and sits in front of the TV.

I seem to remember you saying that PMC made yours, or you had yours tweeked?
 
Jano said:
Was a bit confused, few sites had it listed as 290mm high which didnt look right, but found a manual/tech drawing that confirms it as 155mm. Need to get a little stand made to create space for a centre, my M7C1 is thin and sits in front of the TV.

I seem to remember you saying that PMC made yours, or you had yours tweeked?
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Nah it's the same form factor, just horizontal :)

My main LR FB1i are modded but completely off the record. They would never admit to it and I have no proof other than in the listening :) I'm a professional PMC user first, and a consumer user second, and it's fair to say I'm very passionate about their products. Few other companies have the same engineering tolerances and methodology of recording the values of very component they use. If you ever have your speakers services or repaired PMC can pull the record on your speaker and if components need replacing only exact matches are used. That's serious dedication to perfection :)
 
I can see me spending a lot of money shortly.

The mail I had back from the dealer pretty much said the B&W's (CM5) were rubbish, the MA's (GX50) were good, and the PMC's (db1i, tb2i and .21's) are excellent. They don't stock the Kef's so didn't comment. This kinda matches my gut feeling at the moment, the MA's aren't really getting me excited, despite what I've read about them, yet the PMC's have really piqued my interest ;) My thinking is if these don't get the hairs on the back of my neck standing up, nothing will. They don't have the centres which is a bit of a pain, but probably saves me some money for a little while, I'm sure I can survive running a phantom centre for a little bit.
 
I have to say that speaker choice is down to what you are used to and what sort of sound appeals. I have completely sealed loudspeakers and every time I listen to anything ported, all I hear is the port. Transmission line speakers - like the PMCs - tend to be smoother from memory (not heard any recently), but I heard a pair of £4000 B&Ws (no idea what model) driven by a £40,000 Naim setup and it was a complete boom and tizz mess compared to what I am used to. And when I say mess, it really was a mess aurally.

Of course, it could be the amp or room it was in, but the NAP500 is supposed to be a monster at being able to control speakers and the sound was the same mess wherever I stood in the room.
 
Have arranged a demo for next week, and the dealer has recommended also listening to a pair of ProAc Tablette Anniversary. Looking around their website is rather eye watering, some of their stuff is ridiculous money (Sonus and Martin Logan speakers!), but they have been really helpful, while I still haven't had a reply from my usual dealer...

The Audio T near me is a bit like that too, supposedly high end system is always blasting out music when you go in there, but it doesn't sound good, just loud :(
 
Jano said:
My thinking is if these don't get the hairs on the back of my neck standing up, nothing will. They don't have the centres which is a bit of a pain, but probably saves me some money for a little while, I'm sure I can survive running a phantom centre for a little bit.
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What makes PMC i series (rather than the Twenty or Facts) special for me is that they don't really have that much of a character as such, they're very neutral and give you the impression that the music is being performed in front of you. Close your eyes and you're there. That said, as you go up the model range, it's as if you're taking a step closer. With the i series sharing the same tweeter across the whole range, and being crossed over so low (2kHz) the general tone is pretty much identical across the range, especially so for the 2 way designs, you just get greater low end extension.

Whilst the DB1i's are a phenomenal little speaker, they do need a good match electronically to get the best from them, especially to exploit the low end capability. They'll show up a poorly put together system and need an amp that will take control; they love power.

One other thing, ask how many hours of use the demo pair have had. If they're new, or have less than 100 hours on them they'll not be performing anywhere near their best. Due to the transmission line providing balanced pressure behind the cone, and the drivers being quite stiff (to help with power handling) they take a long time to run in; the low end drivers hardly have to move, so as a result it's a slow process.
 
Jano said:
The mail I had back from the dealer pretty much said the B&W's (CM5) were rubbish, the MA's (GX50) were good, and the PMC's (db1i, tb2i and .21's) are excellent.
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I like the Radius, Bronze BX and Silver RX ranges, though when you get to the Silvers I think that Focals are a better choice for similar money. I'm haven't been impressed by the MA Gold GX series, and I have yet to hear some B&Ws that make me want to sit down and listen to a load of music. This is after falling in love with the look of the original 601s and after having installed B&W right up to the £18K Nautilus Diamond 800s with ARCAM, Naim and Classe electronics.
 
The dealer did also say that the B&W PM1's were a better option, if I wanted to listen to some B&W's, but that seemed a rather substantial jump in price, when ideally the most I wanted to spend on the fronts was £1500. Especially when the matching centres are a similar price, and ideally I would like to keep the total cost of this upgrade to around £2k.

I've heard the Radius and Bronze BX's, but not sure they are offering any real upgrade over what I have, and i'd rather spend the money on something a bit special. The other thing working against the Focal ranges are the GF did not like the looks of them one bit!
 
Ah, I think you said you own Mission M71s for the front pair (?). I'm not surprised that the MA Radius didn't sound better. That's not what they're about. They are Hi-Fi speakers in a very small box. Similarly the BX2 would be an equivalent level to the M71 (a mid sized bookshelf speaker) although with a different sonic signature. Going up to floor standers in your room might pose a problem too depending on speaker position. As for the aesthetics of the Focals, fair enough, the V grille can be a challenge for some :D

The PMC 'i' monitors then. I think if I was demoing and looking at going up in quality without overwhelming the room with bass than I might also shortlist Rega too. Their floorstanders strike a nice balance between the speed and tightness of a standmounted speaker and the extra weight of a floorstander.
 
Just got home after the demo, listed to five pairs of speakers, one of which was awful, the others were very very good.

First up was the PMC db1i's. Instant smile, clarity was a massive step up from my Missions, yet the feel of the Missions was still there. Was listening to a guy called Maxwell's first CD, and I've owned this CD since 1996 so I know the songs backwards, forwards, or at least I thought I did. The base lines were clear yet subtle, drums crisp, guitars, I could hear them plucking the strings, I instantly thought this is what I've been missing. After grinning through half the CD, I finally let the salesman give the next pair a try.

Monitor Audio GX50. Smile turned upside down. £950 speakers and I felt like I was inside some boy racer's Corsa sitting on a stupid subwoofer. Boom boom blergh. Absolutely awful, the lovely clarity I was hearing with the PMC's was gone, drowned out in a sea of bass. 10 minutes was more than enough and on to the next pair.

ProAc Tablette Anniversary. Much better, but I was still looking longingly at the PMC's. At £200 more than the PMC's I was expecting something special and I didn't find it. Definitely close to the db1i's in their feel and presentation, but I felt there was something missing. Again, sounded really good but the PMC's were just that little bit more refined.

Next up he brought in some PMC TB2i's, which again stepped things up a notch. The clarity and feel of the db1i's were there, but they seemed to do things a little bit more effortlessly. The only downside for me was the size, substantially bigger than the db1i's, and again, coulnd't justify the extra £400 MSRP. Lovely speakers though.

I then asked to try the new twenty.21's, and was surprised by the difference between these and the db1's. They had a softer, more refined sound, but seemed to be missing something for me. Discounting the TB2i's due to the size, these were still better than the ProAc's for me, but the clarity of the i range wasn't there. Seemed to me that in gaining that refined sound, they lost something.

I then asked about a taking the db1i's home for a trial, no problem at all, and the salesman dropped the bombshell of the day for me. Black Ash speakers, sounds perfect, and he was about to put them on Ebay as the cleaner had scratched the back of it, hardly noticeable at all, so he'd give them to me for a discount if I liked them. £1050 MSRP, offered to me at £650, with about 10 metres of Chord Co Odyssey 2 thrown in. Happy Days!

So I'm now sat at home with a pair of PMC db1i's that are sounding better and better with every song I put through them, and I can't wait to get to a position where I can get some gb1i's/fb1i's to match ;)
 
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Great result then..... you don't surprise me on the comments about the MA's...
Re i series vs twenty, think this comes down what works best with your amp and personal taste... so there is no right or wrong answer, just what works best for you......
They will get better with time.... enjoy a great purchase.....
 
Congrats Jano, I thought you wouldn't be disappointed. You do realise you've started on a a winding path that will cost you thousands more, lol! ;)

PMC's are like Pringles, once you pop you can't stop! :D The range really does get better the more you spend, but as you eluded to the law of diminishing returns kicks in and you have to weigh up the cost/benefit factor.

Not a bad price, could have possibly done better but that's a whole different conversation hehe. :)
 
Excellent stuff, glad you are happy with your choice. Thanks for taking the time to give us your opinions on the demo :)
 
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