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Argh, AMD/nVIDIA pricing is infuriating me

*BANG ON*
A *lot* of people would have jumped from GTX 580 to 7970 if they offered a straight up 50-70%+ increase in performance straight out of the box...

Can you recall ONE instance of a top-end card giving 50 to 70% plus increase in performance between generations? This is a nonsensical expectation imo, it just ain't ever going to happen.

To the OP, the thing that is infuriating you is basic pricing strategy - AMD (or more specifically, the AMD re-seller like Power Color, XFX etc.) is skimming the market as much as possible to make the maximum return on each unit. They would be stupid not to, given that there are no competing cards on the market at the moment.
 
AMD are doing NVidia a big favour with current prices. Normally NVidia would have to cut prices dramatically upon release of newer faster opposition, but not this time. AMD have stupidly priced their cards in a way that makes them unattractive to most gamers. As the 7900 cards are undeniably expensive, and arguably underperform, many people are simply waiting for Kepler, or for the inevitable AMD price cuts.

Even though NVidia have no poduct available (and possibly none for several months), AMD are not taking significant market share because few people are prepared to pay overinflated 28nm prices.

As it is, everyone is talking about when Kepler will arrive, rather than what a must-have card the 7970 is. If prices were £50 less the 7900's would have sold well. If they were £75-£100 less (GTX 570 & 580 levels), they would have been a massive hit.
 
AMD are doing NVidia a big favour with current prices. Normally NVidia would have to cut prices dramatically upon release of newer faster opposition, but not this time. AMD have stupidly priced their cards in a way that makes them unattractive to most gamers. As the 7900 cards are undeniably expensive, and arguably underperform, many people are simply waiting for Kepler, or for the inevitable AMD price cuts.

Even though NVidia have no poduct available (and possibly none for several months), AMD are not taking significant market share because few people are prepared to pay overinflated 28nm prices.

As it is, everyone is talking about when Kepler will arrive, rather than what a must-have card the 7970 is. If prices were £50 less the 7900's would have sold well. If they were £75-£100 less (GTX 570 & 580 levels), they would have been a massive hit.

I agree - I was looking forward to the new series/ But not at the current price scheme.
 
I suppose the best strategy is to come out with a total dodo of a card and then follow up with something average that by comparison looks amazing.
 
9700Pro, 8800GTX, GTX480.

Are these the only ones? I will grant you that the GTX480 was an almost 50% improvement on the GTX280 (but at the cost of power/noise?).

I can't speak for the other cards, but I take your point - although I would say that such cases are rare and come along once every 4 years or so.
 
Are these the only ones? I will grant you that the GTX480 was an almost 50% improvement on the GTX280 (but at the cost of power/noise?).

I can't speak for the other cards, but I take your point - although I would say that such cases are rare and come along once every 4 years or so.

No they're not. They're more the rule than the exception.
 
Are these the only ones? I will grant you that the GTX480 was an almost 50% improvement on the GTX280 (but at the cost of power/noise?).
GTX 280 - 576mm^2 die size, 65nm process
GTX 480 - 529mm^2 die size, 40nm process

Basically all the additional performance came from shrinking the process. This doesn't happen very often.

xsistor said:
No they're not. They're more the rule than the exception.
It happens whenever there is a process change, the architecture seemingly has naff-all to do with it.
 
I blame gigabyte msi and asus, ie partners who produce both kinds of boards.

They are the guys who essentially control the pricing market because they're buying from AMD/Nvidia. They're almost certainly the reason behind the 7950/70 pricing as they want to be able to shift their stock of the 570/580 before kepler arrives.
 
GTX 280 - 576mm^2 die size, 65nm process
GTX 480 - 529mm^2 die size, 40nm process

Basically all the additional performance came from shrinking the process. This doesn't happen very often.


It happens whenever there is a process change, the architecture seemingly has naff-all to do with it.
The process plays the largest part for overall performance gains, but it is architecture that makes the crucial difference. All being equal with NVidia and AMD running on the same process, it is the architecture than seperates them (die size also helps).

Looking at refreshes within the same process such as 5870 vs 6970 indicates what benefits architecture can have. AMD made some basic changes to shader layouts and gained 20-30% performance in some areas for little additional transistor count.

Now, this is where the 7900's are a little disappointing. Looking at the basics, the 7970 has 33% more shaders, 50% more memory bandwidth, and almost twice as many shaders as the 6970. All of this extra muscle only provides ~35-40% real world clock for clock gains. I would agree that in the case of the 7900, all of the extra performance comes from the die shrink, and that very few architectual gains have been made over the 6900's (atleast very few that make a difference within games).

It is almost as if AMD have implemented Intel's tick-tock approach whereby every other generation focusues on either die-shrink, or architecrure, with just a tiny overhang of the two.

If AMD simply die-shrunk and factored-up the specs of it's greatest ever card- the 9700Pro to a 4bn transistor monster, it would be utterly crap by todays standards. Architecture is vital and makes a world of difference. Unfortunately it does not evolve as quickly as die-shrinks which are the easy way to obtain gains. Just take AMD vs Intel in the CPU world, where Intel has AMD whipped for architecture. On the same fab process Intel are literally years ahead of AMD. AMD latest processors can only just about beat Intel's 3 year old i7 socket 1366 parts which were made on a much larger process.

Below is a simple graph showing the accumulated affects of 0%, 5% and 10% architectual gains per generation. These gains may be small compared to an average 40% gain aquired through shrinkage, but they certainly add up. This is where AMD have lost out to Intel since the days of the Athlon XP's.
53485764.jpg
 
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It's the same voices moaning since the 79** launched, imho attempting to discourage buyers to wait for team green whenever that may be.

This I really don't understand unless you are an undercover agent employed by Nvidia as they don't care about us, they just want to wring every bit of cash out of us, this goes for AMD too.

I don't give a **** what card anyone buys be it team green or the red corner.

Amd has been stockpiling chips since Oct iirc, that's also a reason why they are not running out, it's not all down to pricing but mainly it's the price.

Every day Kepler isn't released Nvidia are losing sales to AMD!

AMD are doing Nvidia no favours at all, the 7970 is aimed at 580 3Gb cards pricing which has more or less stopped said 580's selling, the same goes for the 7950 killing 1.5GB 580 sales too.

Both 79** series and 580 series are highly overpriced niche market selling cards(the 580 never exactly flew out the door either) as pointed out before(but the usual suspects choose to ignore it as they will this)!

Once Kepler does indeed arrive, if it's the 'slower' 680 then AMD will keep the high 7970 prices and undercut the 'slower' 680 with the 1.5Gb 79** cards.

This time round I don't see Nvidia being cheaper at all until the 28nm process starts improving as Nvidia needs to purchase the whole wafer including faulty or not chips.
 
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Why would AMD aim their 7970 againt a graphics card that always sold extremely poorly because it was massively overpriced? The GTX 580 3GB was never mainstream and few review sites ever gave it positive comments. It was a niche card that never sold because it was too expensive. Do you think AMD will release their 1.5GB 7970 at GTX580 1.5GB prices? The only reason the 3GB 7970 cards have $15 of extra VRAM is so that AMD can justify charging £100 more for them. Just like NVidia did with the laughable non-upgrade that was the 3GB GTX580.

Once the 7970 1.5GB version arrives, benchmarks will show exactly the same as they did for the 1.5GB vs 3GB GTX580's. There will be absolutely no difference within almost every game at almost every resolution. 3GB is currently overkill, and even 2GB is probably more than most people need. 1.5GB should hit the sweatspot for most people.
 
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Why would AMD aim their 7970 againt a graphics card that always sold extremely poorly because it was massively overpriced?

Because it's the current gpu champ they can charge what they like over/under the competitions current fastest card, it's their product so they set the price.

It still baffles me why there was no no outcry at the extra cost of a custom cooled 580 last year @£480 when the slightly slower 6970/570 cost +£180 less, it was just the line 'you pay for the fastest available', nothing has changed apart from the colour of the team.
 
It still baffles me why there was no no outcry at the extra cost of a custom cooled 580 last year @£480 when the slightly slower 6970/570 cost +£180 less, it was just the line 'you pay for the fastest available', nothing has changed apart from the colour of the team.
UK launch day pricing for the 1.5GB GTX580 was £380 to £400. That card beat SAME GEN 6970's by a good 15-20%, and like the 7970 it also overclocked better than the opposition. The 7970 costs £420 to £450 and only beats PREVIOUS GEN GTX580 by 20%. People expect more from a next gen card.

The GTX480 lauch price was higher than the GTX580, but the 480 destroyed all previous gen cards by 50-60% without having to overclock, and it overclocked well too.
 
Why would AMD aim their 7970 againt a graphics card that always sold extremely poorly because it was massively overpriced? The GTX 580 3GB was never mainstream and few review sites ever gave it positive comments. It was a niche card that never sold because it was too expensive.

The exact same could be said of the 1.5gb 580.

Firstly it was too much for 1080p (560ti and 570 being the sweet spot for that res) yet not powerful enough for 1440p or 1600p.

Thus it was a bit of a willy waving white elephant.

Loads of them sold.

You need to remember that common sense and logic are usually brushed to one side when talking about enthusiast parts. They are never value for money and they are always too much for one task yet insufficient for another.

Doesn't stop them selling in droves.
 
Kepler must be seriously crap if they couldn't even announce anything at PDXLAN, hence AMD pricing reflecting their king of the hill status. By the time Keplate is released, the next generation AMD's will be along to spank it back to never never land, and the inflated prices that come from being top dog again.

UK launch day pricing for the 1.5GB GTX580 was £380 to £400. That card beat SAME GEN 6970's by a good 15-20%, and like the 7970 it also overclocked better than the opposition. The 7970 costs £420 to £450 and only beats PREVIOUS GEN GTX580 by 20%. People expect more from a next gen card.

The GTX480 lauch price was higher than the GTX580, but the 480 destroyed all previous gen cards by 50-60% without having to overclock, and it overclocked well too.

OcUK's biggest Nvidia fanboiiii perhaps? :p
 
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You'd think they'd make graphics cards around the resolutions...

Essentially a load of low end ones that will run most things with reduced eye candy at <1080, cards that cream most things at 1080, cards that cream everything at 1080 and most things at 1600 and cards that run everything at 1600.

For multi head systems, multigpu is only ever going to be the right way to go.
 
The exact same could be said of the 1.5gb 580.
I disagree, and so do all of the reviews I have read. The GTX580 1.5GB was expensive, but it offered by far the best performance for it's generation. Most, if not all review sites raved about it.

The GTX580 3GB was a different beast. It cost an extra £100 and offered zero performance increase. Some sites even showed it to be slightly slower than the 1.5GB version due to slacker memory timings or whatever reason. The 3GB was a bit of a stinker and never really sold.

There was MASSIVE difference between the perceived value for money for each of these cards.
 
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