Petition to save the NHS

[MrMoonX]

The Health Emergency guide to how to speak Lansley

A:
- “Any Qualified Provider”
Any willing provider who fills in the right forms and is not bankrupt
B:
- “Bureaucracy”
Level of accountability that is to be abolished
C:
- “Clinical Commissioning Group”
Device to make GPs carry the can for unpopular decisions drawn up by the private sector
- “Commissioning Support Organisation”
Private sector company in charge of public-sector budget
D:
- “Doctors tell me they want these reforms”
I once met a doctor who told me he supported part of the Bill
- “Duty to secure that services are provided”
Secretary of State’s attempt to escape a duty to provide services
E:
- “Empowered”
Scapegoat-to-be
- “Excellent”
Description of any service offered by the private sector
- “Evidence shows…”
I’m making this up
F:
- “Fully engaged”
Patronised and treated as idiots
H:
- “Having a voice”
Roped into token toothless committees
- “Health and social care integration”
Cutting budgets for both health and social care
I:
- “In control”
Scapegoat-to-be
- “Independent”
A body stuffed with my supporters
- “Integrated”
Fragmented, perhaps linked by contracts
- “Intelligent commissioning”
Commissioning supported by private sector
- “Involve”
pretend to consult while ignoring
- “I’m not lonely”
Nobody agrees with me
L:
- “Listening exercise”
A period ostentatiously ignoring opposing views
- “Liberating the NHS”
Liberating the private sector
- “Liberalisation”
Privatisation
M:
- “Modernisation”
Rolling the clock back to the 1930s
- “Monitor”
McKinsey and co reshaping the NHS as a network for business
N:
- “National Health Service”
A cash pot to purchase services from private providers
- “Not privatising”
Privatising provision
- “No decision about me without me”
Every decision imposed from above
- “No top-down reorganisation”
Biggest reorganisation since 1948
O:
- “Our journey”
My hijack of the NHS
- “Outcomes”
Greater profits for private health providers
P:
- “Patient choice”
System foisted on patients giving them the right to choose the cheapest service
- “Private-sector efficiency”
The outcome of putting profits ahead of every other consideration and picking only profitable services, leaving the rest to the public sector
- “Private finance initiative”
Issue that allows me to blame Labour for their implementation of a Tory policy while I carry on signing new PFI deals
- “Promoting choice”
Privatisation
- “Ploughed back into patient care”
Ploughed into private sector
Q:
- “Qualified”
Not yet bankrupt
R:
- “Referral management”
Replaces patient choice with bureaucrats’ choice
S:
- “Shared decision-making”
The illusion that patients and GPs choose when their decisions are subject to referral management centres
- “Social enterprise”
Interim non-profit private provider paving the way for proper private takeover
- “Sustainable”
Private sector
T:
- “Thousands of GPs”
A tiny handful
- “Take the politics out of the discussion”
Please stop discussing the consequences if this Bill goes through
- “The Bill enjoys the support of all the clinical professions”
And there are fairies at the bottom of our garden
V:
- “Vested interests”
Anyone opposed to Lansley’s Bill, never private sector
W:
- “Working together”
In competition

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Next two posts says it all

Tory spin: Saves money

Reality: Costing upwards of £3 billion to implement, the reforms are more an expensive gamble than a money-saving exercise, increasing bureaucracy with at least five tiers of management beneath the unaccountable National Commissioning Board

It is intended to save money in the long term.

Tory spin: Gives local control over services
Reality: Will be less local than ever with new clinical commissioning groups covering much larger areas and more patients than under primary care trusts

There will be more commissioning bodies than there are PCTs.

Tory spin: Puts doctors in charge
Reality: Government documents have already made it clear that commissioning services will be contracted out to private management consultancies. GPs will merely rubber stamp them and be a convenient scapegoat when things go **** up

This is false.

Tory spin: Empowers patients
Reality: No patients have been consulted about the plans. Instead it empowers the private sector, which will cherry-pick profitable services leaving the rump for the public sector

Competition empowers consumers. Patients are consumers of healthcare services. If competition doesn't empower consumers, let's abolish all our our anti-competitive laws and legislation.

Tory spin: Empowers patients
Reality: There has been no evidence that competition improves healthcare services. But there is plenty of evidence that it undermines the quality of care, as seen in the cost-cutting of privatised hospital cleaning services

Firstly, the 'privatised hospital cleaning' example is a fallacious comparison. It is apples and oranges. Hospital cleaning was privatised and outsourced under different circumstances, under a different framework and by different people.

NHS reform: competition improves hospitals, report finds
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/20/nhs-reform-competition-improves-hospitals

Does Hospital Competition Save Lives? EvidenceFrom The English NHS Patient Choice Reforms
http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/28584/1/WP16.pdf

Impact of reintroducing competition in the English NHS: a synthesis of evidence from the Health Reform Evaluation Programme
http://hrep.lshtm.ac.uk/publications/conference/impact.pdf

But I don't know why I bother. You have your beliefs and prejudices as evidenced by your two posts above (and the wording of them), and facts aren't going to change anything. You epitomise the idiocy of the Great British Pleblic.

 

[piggeh]

How will this cherry picking work? I'm sure the CCGs wont separate out services to allow providers to just take the good bits, its the CCGs who will have to find a provider for the various services so they wont stitch themselves up.

We went over this about a month ago to which the response was we were not privy to all the information.

curse the "walls of silence", I guess we'll never know.

 

[Xordium]

Have I? I started a thread urging people to sign a petition to save the NHS. As it happens, I have posted in this thread a number of times since.

Yes, but the point was you start threads and generally contribute very little to them.

I haven't risen to the "lolhausen" provocations from the usual suspects because frankly I can't see the point.

Good for you.

I have ignored Lolph's posts because he has a well-known vendetta against the NHS, partly because of who he is but perhaps largely because he believes that the NHS failed his wife and mother-in-law in some way.

Well hopefully the excellent treatment he first described recently restored his faith a little.

As to Lolph's ludicrous assertion based on a statistical analysis from the right-wing Taxpayers Alliance that the NHS "causes 17k excessive deaths per year", you don't seriously expect me to address it do you? I notice that your considered response was "*yawn*".

As the person starting a thread to save something then yes when someone calls that out with misleading information then yes I do expect you to respond. Me I can be contrary and post ill-considered responses like *yawn*.

Frankly, people either believe that the ideas behind a National Health Service available to all regardless of financial status are a good idea, worth retaining or they would like to see a privatised health system where the standard of care you, your parents and your children receive is dependent on wealth and therefore support the ConDem's proposals.

Or they don't take the black and white view and fall in the middle ...

I'm sure you know that the Government has refused to release a Risk Assessment of the impact of the NHS health reforms that they themselves had produced at our expense despite having been told to do so by the Information commissioner months ago.

I know lots of things - for example I know good investment in infrastructure would save the NHS more money than the Tories could dream of. This is where long term cost savings will be made it's really quite simple.

I guess that you also know that Cameron refuses to consult with anyone who doesn't support the ConDem plans.

With more knowledge than probably everyone here about the chaps motivations I would suggest he is not maybe entirely objective when it comes to this issue ...

As it happens, 38Degrees are encouraging people to approach their MP (as I have done, regularly)If just a few people from this forum contact their MP before Wednesday, it will make a whole lot more difference than fruitlessly trying to change the mind of one bitter, twisted anarchist don't you think?

If you knew who my MP was you'd not bother.

Despite having protested his admiration for the NHS before the last General Election and promised to cut the deficit, not the NHS, the lying Cameron and his sacrificial lamb Lansley know that if they ignore the public for long enough, they will have so damaged the NHS that it will not be possible to repair it. Kicking them out at the next General Election will not bring back the NHS.

Well the NHS will not go it just won't be the same. And nor should it - that does not mean it should go down the proposed route but it would be rather remiss of any government not to try and improve things. For that though the discussions need to go ahead that I raise in everyone of these threads we cycle through every few months.

ps - why have you changed your name from Maustin? What are you and AcidHell (aka Glaucus) trying to walk away from?

Well naturally I can only speak for myself but at the time and in that post to Dolph above I have quite clearly stated that I am moving my name here to my general online presence as people on these forums (who I know elsewhere) didn't know that was me. You should pay more attention to the threads you start and you would have known this

 

[stockhausen]

... If you knew who my MP was you'd not bother. ...

You seem happy enough to engage in entirely pointless debate with Lolph, why not spare a few moments to contact your MP - a very, very negative and disappointing attitude

There must be some reason why the Government are refusing to release the top secret Risk Assessment on the impact of the NHS health reforms despite being instructed to do so by the Information Commissioner.

Has your local MP actually stated publicly that s/he is opposed to the idea of open Government, answerable to the electorate?


If you should happen to change your mind, here is the LINK again

 

[Hatter The Mad]

If you should happen to change your mind, here is the LINK again

Thanks for the link. I've used it to encourage my MP to support the spirit of the bill and the goals it sets out to achieve, and urge pragmatism when it comes to refining the details.

 

[Xordium]

You seem happy enough to engage in entirely pointless debate with Lolph, why not spare a few moments to contact your MP - a very, very negative and disappointing attitude

There must be some reason why the Government are refusing to release the top secret Risk Assessment on the impact of the NHS health reforms despite being instructed to do so by the Information Commissioner.

Has your local MP actually stated publicly that s/he is opposed to the idea of open Government, answerable to the electorate?


If you should happen to change your mind, here is the LINK again

I have done a few other things than add my name to something that will not make a difference imo. But for a further explanation:

The victorious strategist only seeks battle after the victory has been won, whereas he who is destined to defeat first fights and afterwards looks for victory.
- Sun Tzu

http://www.andrew-mitchell-mp.co.uk/

 

[stockhausen]

Thanks for the link. I've used it to encourage my MP to support the spirit of the bill and the goals it sets out to achieve, and urge pragmatism when it comes to refining the details.

In which case, you must be perfectly happy for the ConDems to keep secret the Risk Assessment on the impact of the NHS health reform.

Quelle surprise

 

[fanny]

And still far more interested in their members than the general public.

you're making the assumption that everyone is out for themselves. which of course is the major reason for society getting to the state it's in.

 

[fanny]

Thanks for the link. I've used it to encourage my MP to support the spirit of the bill and the goals it sets out to achieve, and urge pragmatism when it comes to refining the details.

you and he don't have any idea whats in the bill or how the NHS should work

 

[Hatter The Mad]

you and he don't have any idea whats in the bill or how the NHS should work

I know my MP doesn't, but I do

 

[fanny]

I know my MP doesn't, but I do

really

 

[Glaucus]

I know my MP doesn't, but I do

And this is the problem with democracy. It's a popularity vote.

People should be elected into roles that they have extensive training and life/job experience in. These separate entities should come up with the best workable solutions. Far chance of ever having trained scientists working with trained business people for example to come up with best plan to meet are EU targets and energy security.

Even when government do consult scientists they get fired as soon as they don't tow the line.

Should just get rid or party politics..

Hmm I think I've gone off topic.

 

[Glaucus]

really

Why do you think an mp would know anything?

 

[stockhausen]

I know my MP doesn't, but I do

Since you are so incredibly well informed, perhaps you would like to tel us all what is in this top secret Risk Assessment on the impact of the NHS health reforms.


No?


Somehow I thought not since you actually know diddle-squat.


There are still a few hours left for you to email your MP to request that s/he votes to demand that Lansley does as he was instructed months ago by the Information Commissioner (LINK).

Go on, man up you wimp, you know it makes sense . . .

 

[Tefal]

Go on, man up you wimp, you know it makes sense . . .

Last time people followed your advice it put the conservatives in power.

You sure you want to tell people what to do again?

 

[Xordium]

Last time people followed your advice it put the conservatives in power.

You sure you want to tell people what to do again?

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Since you are so incredibly well informed, perhaps you would like to tel us all what is in this top secret Risk Assessment on the impact of the NHS health reforms.

No?

Somehow I thought not since you actually know diddle-squat.

The risk assessment is going to outline every conceivable risk there is to the NHS following the reforms. Because the bill is about giving freedoms, it is undoubtedly going to say that there is a risk that every single bad thing that could happen, might happen. That includes the risk that quality might go down. Deaths might go up. Prices might increase.

I would rather it not be published because most people won't realise or will be misreported to (and others too conniving with their agendas) that it is an assessment of possibilities - not probabilities.

Because I support the bill in spirit, I would not want to give any ammunition which would be misused by those opposed to the bill.

As 38degrees puts it - it could be used as 'another nail in the coffin of Andrew Lansley’s plans'.

 

[stockhausen]

Last time people followed your advice it put the conservatives in power.

You sure you want to tell people what to do again?

After less than two years, you probably haven't had time to work it out yet but the Tories aren't actually in power.

As to your disappointment at having followed my advice to vote for the Liberal Democrats; like you, I am disappointed that they didn't get enough votes to allow them to form a coalition with the Labour party but at least you and I helped to keep the blood-sucking Tories out of overall power


Incidentally, I notice from the Grauniad website that Liberal Democrat activists have submitted an emergency motion on NHS reforms to their spring conference in a last-ditch effort to persuade the party leadership to oppose the bill. Their motion calls for the entire section of the bill extending privatisation of the NHS to be scrapped – as a minimum.

 

[Xordium]

Incidentally, I notice from the Grauniad website that Liberal Democrat activists have submitted an emergency motion on NHS reforms to their spring conference in a last-ditch effort to persuade the party leadership to oppose the bill. Their motion calls for the entire section of the bill extending privatisation of the NHS to be scrapped – as a minimum.

Might want to get their boss on board - that would be a good start.