Killing newborn babies no different from abortion, experts say

RDM · 2 Mar 2012 at 14:55

_Jimlad_ said:
if it a spade then call it a spade. i would not be so crawl to say what i thought on the matter after the deed is done. I have and would however say all that before someone did abort to their face.

And you wonder why people feel guilt when that is the sort of thing you would tell a woman who may be facing a very difficult decision. Can I suggest that maybe support groups aren't actually your thing?

_Jimlad_ said:
how can you say "unfounded comments about murder" WTF do you think "termination" means? just because it's in 'mummys tummy' does not mean it's not a real life.... seriously some people

Really quite simple. Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. A lawful abortion is not murder because it is not unlawful. An illegal abortion is not murder because a feotus (or unborn baby if you prefer) is not a person.

By all means refer to it as "killing babies" if you like, however it is not murder, if you do then I would suggest you are incredibly unsuitable to have any involvement in any support group that has anything to do with abortion.

As an aside I fit your strange criteria for having a view on this topic by being a parent.

steve-h · 2 Mar 2012 at 14:55

boxman2000 said:
sadly ££££ plays the biggest part and it is cheaper to offer free abortions than to have these children born and be a part of the system..

yeah and that other thing... er... what was it again? oh ye, the 9 months of walking about pregnant and then having to painfully give birth to a child you don't want.

Also the want for abortions. They aren't promoted.

Ahleckz · 2 Mar 2012 at 14:55

Adoption in this country is a mess. Knowing what I do of the care system, I wouldn't want to put any child through that.

Xordium · 2 Mar 2012 at 14:55

Ahleckz said:
I think that this has been one of the most interesting and worth while debates we've had on here for a while.

I don't think we're going to get a consensus of agreement, nor do I particularly think those who take a differing view to mine will come around to my way of thinking and vice-versa.

It's good that, for the most part, people have been civil. I think I've said all I will on the topic for now though.

Go on answer the person one

_Jimlad_ · 2 Mar 2012 at 14:58

steve-h said:
if you're not sure what it is then call it god

You disgust me.

Just because it's in "daddy's balls" etc...

most pathetic reply ever? .... get ya coat on the way out

steve-h · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:02

_Jimlad_ said:
most pathetic reply ever? .... get ya coat on the way out

Go on, tell me why? Was my reply just... 'wrong'?

Ahleckz · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:02

Xordium said:
Go on answer the person one

Regarding a fetus/new born not being a person? I agree. A person is surely someone who is self aware of themselves, and are able to make decisions that directly affect their life. Consciousnesses is a prerequisite as is the ability to hold truths and have desires.

I could argue it in both a legal and a philosophical sense (I'm well versed in legal theory, and have studied philosophy in the past) but I'd prefer to take a commonsense approach and that's demonstrated in my above definition.

_Jimlad_ · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:02

RDM said:
And you wonder why people feel guilt when that is the sort of thing you would tell a woman who may be facing a very difficult decision. Can I suggest that maybe support groups aren't actually your thing?

Really quite simple. Murder is the unlawful killing of a person. A lawful abortion is not murder because it is not unlawful. An illegal abortion is not murder because a feotus (or unborn baby if you prefer) is not a person.

By all means refer to it as "killing babies" if you like, however it is not murder, if you do then I would suggest you are incredibly unsuitable to have any involvement in any support group that has anything to do with abortion.

As an aside I fit your strange criteria for having a view on this topic by being a parent.

really,

that is just 1/3 of a way through a pregnancy. How anyone thinks that it's ok to flush that away is pretty messed up.

AND yes i would do all i can to talk someone out of termination,

boxman2000 · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:03

steve-h said:
yeah and that other thing... er... what was it again? oh ye, the 9 months of walking about pregnant and then having to painfully give birth to a child you don't want.

Also the want for abortions. They aren't promoted.

Well your mother and countless others before managed ok, I'm certain the 'don't want' bit doesn't apply here though.

So a majority makes something acceptable?

I agree with Margret Thatcher on this one - "To me, consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects."

_Jimlad_ · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:04

steve-h said:
Go on, tell me why? Was my reply just... 'wrong'?

go back and read you're 3 statements,

Ahleckz · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:04

_Jimlad_ said:
really,

[IMGttp://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2513/babyat.jpg[/IMG]

that is just 1/3 of a way through a pregnancy. How anyone thinks that it's ok to flush that away is pretty messed up.

AND yes i would do all i can to talk someone out of termination,

What gives you the right to force your values upon someone else? If they wish to have an abortion why should it concern you? That behaviour is truly disgusting.

Oh look, I've been dragged back in. I'll go delete my above post.

_Jimlad_ · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:07

it's the 'don't like it culture' in this country, the women who did our scan said she once had someone abort near to the then cut off point because the baby was gonna have Cleft lip and palate, "yeah its faulty send it back"

boxman2000 · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:07

_Jimlad_ said:
that is just 1/3 of a way through a pregnancy. How anyone thinks that it's ok to flush that away is pretty messed up.

AND yes i would do all i can to talk someone out of termination,

Congratulations by the way!

steve-h · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:08

boxman2000 said:
Well your mother and countless others before managed ok, I'm certain the 'don't want' bit doesn't apply here though.

I'm not following; what relevance does this hold?

boxman2000 said:
So a majority makes something acceptable?

I'm not sure where that's come from...

boxman2000 said:
I agree with Margret Thatcher on this one - "To me, consensus seems to be the process of abandoning all beliefs, principles, values and policies. So it is something in which no one believes and to which no one objects."

I've no idea in what context she said that, so I can't really comment. I try to base my decisions on fact and what I see as reality, but never a belief, principle or emotion.

_Jimlad_ said:
go back and read you're 3 statements,

You can't tell me why then?

steve-h · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:09

_Jimlad_ said:
it's the 'don't like it culture' in this country, the women who did our scan said she once had someone abort near to the then cut off point because the baby was gonna have Cleft lip and palate, "yeah its faulty send it back"

omg that's a shocking tale! I now think we should make abortion illegal for everybody. I've been convinced.

What a murderer, she's basically putting two fingers up to the Christian god!

_Jimlad_ · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:10

Ahleckz said:
What gives you the right to force your values upon someone else? If they wish to have an abortion why should it concern you? That behaviour is truly disgusting.

Oh look, I've been dragged back in. I'll go delete my above post.

the same reason you have been forcing your values on us, if you think i would get in there face and give them a load of mouth then you are wrong. I would stand up for what i believe in, something lost in this country

I went around and got involved in a domestic the other day after seeing a man assault his partner, at least 10 people just watched, even my friend said "dont get involved" well why not if you strongly disagree.

Xordium · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:11

Ahleckz said:
Regarding a fetus/new born not being a person? I agree. A person is surely someone who is self aware of themselves, and are able to make decisions that directly affect their life. Consciousnesses is a prerequisite as is the ability to hold truths and have desires.

I could argue it in both a legal and a philosophical sense (I'm well versed in legal theory, and have studied philosophy in the past) but I'd prefer to take a commonsense approach and that's demonstrated in my above definition.

So you would attribute the same rights to magpies then?

steve-h · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:13

_Jimlad_ said:
the same reason you have been forcing your values on us

Sorry? Who's forcing abortion on people?

_Jimlad_ · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:14

steve-h said:
omg that's a shocking tale! I now think we should make abortion illegal for everybody. I've been convinced.

What a murderer, she's basically putting two fingers up to the Christian god!

here we go, threads with you in often turn into troll sessions, you come up with one good reply then slowly go down hill.

Ahleckz · 2 Mar 2012 at 15:15

_Jimlad_ said:
the same reason you have been forcing your values on us, if you think i would get in there face and give them a load of mouth then you are wrong. I would stand up for what i believe in, something lost in this country

I went around and got involved in a domestic the other day after seeing a man assault his partner, at least 10 people just watched, even my friend said "dont get involved" well why not if you strongly disagree.

I haven't been forcing my values upon anyone. I've been discussing the merits of the journal article and furthering the debate. I haven't, for the most part, been relying on emotional stories to try and win my point. Read the article have you?

_Jimlad_ said:
if it a spade then call it a spade. i would not be so crawl to say what i thought on the matter after the deed is done. I have and would however say all that before someone did abort to their face.

That hardly sounds like the most diplomatic way of doing it.

I ask again, why do you think it's right for you to go up to someone and criticise their emotionally harmful decisions? Instead of forcing your views upon people, maybe you ought to accept that they did what they did because they thought it best and you should accept that.

Within this thread, I haven't claimed that the article is 100% right and everyone is wrong - I disagree with parts of it. Nor have I said that people that don't abort are in the wrong.