Spec me a Police force . . .

Em3bbs · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:20

stockhausen said:
Meanwhile, in other news, the Tories are definitely NOT going to privatise the NHS

well it's your fault - you brainwashed me into voting for the Lib Dems with your constant signatures telling me to do so. So basically, everything you complain about is your fault.

Dolph · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:23

Moving the public sector out of services that don't have to be provided by the state (ie don't require direct access to the state monopoly of force) doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Of course, exact implementation and theory are rather different beasts, so I'll withhold judgement until more information from more sources (hence less risk of bias) is available.

Xordium · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:35

Dolph said:
I'll withhold judgement until more information from more sources (hence less risk of bias) is available.

scorza · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:43

Who did most of the work in gathering evidence against the rioters in London last year? The so called front line police did nothing, instead all the useful police work was done by back office staff pouring over CCTV pictures - exactly the kind of people being thrown to the private sector wolves according to this article.

Vulcan · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:50

Morgoth said:
Actually, they do.

That quote seems to contradict what you said?

They will only be able to what's within the law as a civilian. Similar to PIs, they investigate but they don't walk around with tasers and handcuffs.

paradisiac · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:51

Longbow said:
That quote seems to contradict what you said?

They will only be able to what's within the law as a civilian. Similar to PIs, they investigate but they don't walk around with tasers and handcuffs.

I think his point was the guardian did report it, not the fact they have the same rights

Shimmyhill · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:53

Its nothing to do with Policing (as in the activities of sworn in police officers), its to do with custody and custody investigating after arrest - an awful lot of that work is done by non Police officers as it is and as ever its to save money.

I dont agree with it at all but the OP and even the Guardian are blowing it out of proportion.

There are many areas of Policing that are done by civilians already - CSI being one that people still expect to be done by sworn in officers etc

Dolph · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:55

scorza said:
Who did most of the work in gathering evidence against the rioters in London last year? The so called front line police did nothing, instead all the useful police work was done by back office staff pouring over CCTV pictures - exactly the kind of people being thrown to the private sector wolves according to this article.

Exactly why is this job required in your mind to be in the public sector monopoly?

Morgoth · 2 Mar 2012 at 20:57

paradisiac said:
I think his point was the guardian did report it, not the fact they have the same rights

Indeed.

scorza · 2 Mar 2012 at 21:04

Dolph said:
Exactly why is this job required in your mind to be in the public sector monopoly?

You can't trust the public sector monopoly, but you can trust a private sector oligopoly even less

Dolph · 2 Mar 2012 at 21:10

scorza said:
You can't trust the public sector monopoly, but you can trust a private sector oligopoly even less

Which is why you take steps to avoid an oligopoly.

scorza · 2 Mar 2012 at 21:14

Dolph said:
Which is why you take steps to avoid an oligopoly.

Which is why outsourcing public services never works, you always end up with a few local monopolies. Tell me how you can realistically achieve a competitive marketplace for police services and maybe I'll reconsider.

Dolph · 2 Mar 2012 at 21:17

scorza said:
Which is why outsourcing public services never works, you always end up with a few local monopolies. Tell me how you can realistically achieve a competitive marketplace for police services and maybe I'll reconsider.

In the current regulatory environment, you probably can't, to be fair. TUPE ensures that whoever is providing the service, the staff remain, and the requirements to be able to demonstrate minimum capital requirements and the like mean that there is a very high barrier to market entry. Do note this only applies to police back office services, and not to other, more easily competitive markets such as healthcare provision or education.

Hence why I reserved judgement on whether I actually approve of this move or not, as it's going to take some very careful work to ensure it's actually beneficial.

Haggisman · 2 Mar 2012 at 21:35

lol stochkusaen

sigma · 2 Mar 2012 at 21:45

I welcome this. Just so it annoys the OP and scorza.

Richie · 3 Mar 2012 at 15:43

BBC have now picked this up - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17242956

Here's a thought - what happens if the employees of these companies decide to strike (currently not available to police officers) resulting in a possibly large issue should they be involved in the crime investigation side or support of victims e.g. rape etc.

Richie · 3 Mar 2012 at 15:51

To add - Even Dolph thinks it may be a bad idea FFS

Tummy · 3 Mar 2012 at 15:54

I saw this on the Guardian t'other day.

Do not want.

Dolph · 3 Mar 2012 at 16:02

the BBC article is far more honest. it looks to me like they are trying to privatise the back office functions and also the service currently provided by pcsos. so contrary to the guardian headline, they won't have the ability to detain suspects...

still far fruit convinced it is a good idea mind, I just can't see how a meaningful competitive market can be constructed in the current environment.

DominicStar · 3 Mar 2012 at 16:20

Dolph said:
In the current regulatory environment, you probably can't, to be fair. TUPE ensures that whoever is providing the service, the staff remain, and the requirements to be able to demonstrate minimum capital requirements and the like mean that there is a very high barrier to market entry. Do note this only applies to police back office services, and not to other, more easily competitive markets such as healthcare provision or education.

Why are police back office services more difficult than say, council back office services?

The government have already announced some time ago they plan to make TUPE as good as worthless, so that shouldn't be a barrier. And to any unscrupulous company it pretty much is worthless already anyway. I've just watched what should have been a TUPE of some staff from where I work to another company (both third sector organizations), following a re-tender turn in to redundancies because of some serious underhand dealing.