What is a hot hatch....
- Thread starter Conanius
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What is the element that you feel drops the ST to warm-hot?
It's quick enough, it's pretty powerful, it sounds good, it has a reputation for handling well and being fun to drive and still manages all its daily hatchback duties easily.
I don't get where you feel it doesn't stand up to being called a hot hatch?
Soldato
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- 26 Aug 2003
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Supermini makes no allusions to speed or performance, it's just a size of car
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
'Wow, look at that guy, he must pack some hardcore machinery on his driveway if a Focus ST is slow and cumbersome to him, wow!'
See also:
'I would never be seen in a McDonalds, it is filthy muck not fit to be called food'
and:
'People actually.... PAY MONEY for Casio watches?!'
Anyone else think that the Fiesta ST is a completely missed trick by Ford? Its clearly a Clio/Mini/DS3 rival, but its always been underpowered. Even the new one is only going to have 180bhp while all its rivals are well above 200bhp now.
I don't know if its because Ford don't want to compete against the others, preferring instead to be on its own in some form of 'middle ground', or if maybe they feel 200bhp+ would mean it would be to close to the Focus ST, but I can't help thinking its a bit of a let down. It could be a great cheap rival to the other hot hatches (all hot hatch's have got a bit to expensive for my liking) if it just had that bit more oomph.
Oh yeah, one major thing that makes a hot hatch for me is the price, and some of the recent and up coming offerings are just far to much.
I don't know if its because Ford don't want to compete against the others, preferring instead to be on its own in some form of 'middle ground', or if maybe they feel 200bhp+ would mean it would be to close to the Focus ST, but I can't help thinking its a bit of a let down. It could be a great cheap rival to the other hot hatches (all hot hatch's have got a bit to expensive for my liking) if it just had that bit more oomph.
Oh yeah, one major thing that makes a hot hatch for me is the price, and some of the recent and up coming offerings are just far to much.
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The Fiesta ST has always been strangled for insurance purposes, look at its grouping on release when compared to the Clio 182. Mechanically one can argue it was purposefully strangled from the off...look at the design of the standard airbox and diameter of the exhaust flexi pipe and you'll see what I mean!
The new one sadly seems likely to be the same but being turbocharged I can see more horsepower being very easy to achieve, Mountune already have a 200bhp kit for the Focus with the same engine so a 'new' Fiesta with similar punch will be hot on its heels.
I think people doget too hung up about absolute pace (a thing which seems so common these days) when discounting cars as 'not a hot hatch'. Its more to do with chuckability, sporting intent and a sense of fun than outright pace...Panda 100 can easily be classed as a baby hot hatch, go chuck one down a twisty B road and ring it to within an inch of its life and you'll understand.
These folk going on about 'sub 7 seconds to 60' as being the line in the sand, you realise by doing this you are discounting the Mk1 Golf GTI from the hot hatch category, despite this being arguably the most influential model in defining this particular type of car?!
The new one sadly seems likely to be the same but being turbocharged I can see more horsepower being very easy to achieve, Mountune already have a 200bhp kit for the Focus with the same engine so a 'new' Fiesta with similar punch will be hot on its heels.
I think people doget too hung up about absolute pace (a thing which seems so common these days) when discounting cars as 'not a hot hatch'. Its more to do with chuckability, sporting intent and a sense of fun than outright pace...Panda 100 can easily be classed as a baby hot hatch, go chuck one down a twisty B road and ring it to within an inch of its life and you'll understand.
These folk going on about 'sub 7 seconds to 60' as being the line in the sand, you realise by doing this you are discounting the Mk1 Golf GTI from the hot hatch category, despite this being arguably the most influential model in defining this particular type of car?!
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Way I see it is that a hatch is a hatch.
There are mini hatches and mid size hatches.
The term hot hatch covers all in my opinion. I think the op sums it up in all honesty.
I look at anything others would consider hot/warm and associate it with motoring enthusiasts. Anything involving or interesting with a sporty aim or aspiration is what I consider a hot hatch.
There has to be something unsubtle about it too, be it the manga logos all over a civic type r, the f1 chequered flags on renaultsport models, or mental orange/green paint jobs on fast fords. Something that stands out over a povspec/non performance edition is what makes a hot hatch
There are mini hatches and mid size hatches.
The term hot hatch covers all in my opinion. I think the op sums it up in all honesty.
I look at anything others would consider hot/warm and associate it with motoring enthusiasts. Anything involving or interesting with a sporty aim or aspiration is what I consider a hot hatch.
There has to be something unsubtle about it too, be it the manga logos all over a civic type r, the f1 chequered flags on renaultsport models, or mental orange/green paint jobs on fast fords. Something that stands out over a povspec/non performance edition is what makes a hot hatch
With regards to the Fiesta ST I believe that Ford under powered it so that modders could see decent gains with the power mods. I would be rather annoyed if I paid £120 or so for an induction kit and get say 2bhp like with most cars. Whereas with the ST you can get about 7bhp. I know its not a lot but it makes it feel like its worth the money.
With the correct mods the old Fiesta ST you can go from 150 to 175+ without a remap. I think that, that is pretty good.
Dont get me wrong I cant understand why the new ST is so under powered but all I can think of is that they didnt want to stop people buying the new Focus ST seem as the Fiesta is much bigger and grown up from its older models. Plus it wouldnt surprise me that in the real world that its just as quick as the new Focus ST.
I believe a hot hatch is a car like the Fiesta ST , clio renaultsport & megan, type R, VW GTI etc. All power cars and still have room to fit a wardrobe in the back.
With the correct mods the old Fiesta ST you can go from 150 to 175+ without a remap. I think that, that is pretty good.
Dont get me wrong I cant understand why the new ST is so under powered but all I can think of is that they didnt want to stop people buying the new Focus ST seem as the Fiesta is much bigger and grown up from its older models. Plus it wouldnt surprise me that in the real world that its just as quick as the new Focus ST.
I believe a hot hatch is a car like the Fiesta ST , clio renaultsport & megan, type R, VW GTI etc. All power cars and still have room to fit a wardrobe in the back.
The Fiesta ST is still a great car. I just think that Ford are missing a trick a bit, expecially with the new one. When it has the same engine size as all its rivals but is a considerable bit slower, all those customers who are hung up on 0-60 times and BHP figures are going to look straight past it.
Anything that is reasonably quick (say ~7s 0-60?)has 3/5 doors and is a hoot to drive.
Warm and lukewarm and all this nonsense is just that. Nonsense.
MCS is a hot hatch. RenaultSports are hot hatches, Focus ST, Golf GTI/R etc are all hot hatches.
Not sure about the Polo GTI and Twingo 133 though. Perhaps the Twingo as it's more 'raw' as opposed to a Polo.
Warm and lukewarm and all this nonsense is just that. Nonsense.
MCS is a hot hatch. RenaultSports are hot hatches, Focus ST, Golf GTI/R etc are all hot hatches.
Not sure about the Polo GTI and Twingo 133 though. Perhaps the Twingo as it's more 'raw' as opposed to a Polo.
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I just do not see it that way. A Focus ST on the road is a Focus ST to me. No drama, no event.
If you asked me when it originally came out I would likely say it was a hot hatch but now, not so much.
If asked the question "Name a Hot Hatch" there is not a chance in hell I would say "Focus ST", not till an exhaustive list of absolute hot hatches (In my opinion) were reeled off first.
Personally I think it's a little bit too big, something the RS can get away with because it's absolutely bonkers in other areas.
The VXR range has nuts styling and while I think the ST looks good, it's not exactly out there, is it?
The likes of the 172/182 have some character, something I personally do not see in an ST. Part of that problem I think is a 5cylinder turbo under the bonnet.
I'm not sure why I am defending my opinion to this degree, especially considering I said it was warm-hot NOT lukewarm. The old Focus ST was lukewarm, something I would not label the current ST as.
Is the new one that good?The Polo meets the criteria in your first sentence though
Drama and event when you see one on the road is not part of the requirements for being a hot hatch.
Look at the original hot hatch - the Mk1 Golf GTI. Looks barely any different to a regular Golf.
I think you've completely missed the point. If anything, not looking completely banzai-bonkers-whoa-what-was-that makes a car MORE of a hot hatch, not LESS.
The hot hatch concept was a car of two halves - a normal, humdrum, every day practical hatchback for taking the kids to school and doing a bit of shopping. And that having monumental fun on the way back.
The ST is just as hot-hatch if not hotter than most.
It is almost the exact definition of a hot hatch - a practical car that is fun to drive.
It handles, it's quick, and is probably one of the most practical hot hatches you'll ever find.
It has plenty of character, too - the noise it makes is a large part of that, but it'll still indulge you with bundles of LOOS, it'll still put a huge smile on your face down any twisty road - it just does it all incredibly well.
As for what I consider a hot hatch - I certainly don't agree with those claiming a hot hatch needs to do 0-60 in under 7 seconds as that would eliminate some of the best hot hatches ever made from the list.
To me it's not about 0-60 times - there is no reason why a car that does 0-60 in 8 or even 9 seconds can't be a hot hatch IMO.
It's all about a fun, practical every day car. Whether the fun comes from it being fast, it handling well or just some quirks of the car. Fun is the primary factor.
Focus ST is fast, Clio 182 handles, Corsa VXR is made by it's quirks.
They are the last three cars I've owned and I enjoyed driving the VXR the most, despite it being slower than and handling worse than the other two.
It is almost the exact definition of a hot hatch - a practical car that is fun to drive.
It handles, it's quick, and is probably one of the most practical hot hatches you'll ever find.
It has plenty of character, too - the noise it makes is a large part of that, but it'll still indulge you with bundles of LOOS, it'll still put a huge smile on your face down any twisty road - it just does it all incredibly well.
As for what I consider a hot hatch - I certainly don't agree with those claiming a hot hatch needs to do 0-60 in under 7 seconds as that would eliminate some of the best hot hatches ever made from the list.
To me it's not about 0-60 times - there is no reason why a car that does 0-60 in 8 or even 9 seconds can't be a hot hatch IMO.
It's all about a fun, practical every day car. Whether the fun comes from it being fast, it handling well or just some quirks of the car. Fun is the primary factor.
Focus ST is fast, Clio 182 handles, Corsa VXR is made by it's quirks.
They are the last three cars I've owned and I enjoyed driving the VXR the most, despite it being slower than and handling worse than the other two.
[TW]Fox;21394033 said:
I am not disagreeing with you really. I am certainly not dictating what is a requirement of a hatch, merely explaining, as asked, why in my eyes I think an ST is not THAT hot.
I think the definition has changed somewhat and today, in 2012 the hot hatch brief is different - evidence of in the sheer amount of nuts hot hatches in production today. Maybe it is actually a case of they should not be called hot hatches at all because they push that boundary TOO far.
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I think your definition of hot hatch is twisted.
A 1.6 205 GTi is just as much a hot-hatch as a Focus RS, an Astra VXR or whichever moden hot hatch you care to choose.
Just because they are faster, technically better and less "bad" these days, doesn't make them any more or less "hot", neither does it have any impact on how hot the hot hatches of yesteryear are.
A 1.6 205 GTi is just as much a hot-hatch as a Focus RS, an Astra VXR or whichever moden hot hatch you care to choose.
Just because they are faster, technically better and less "bad" these days, doesn't make them any more or less "hot", neither does it have any impact on how hot the hot hatches of yesteryear are.
I don't know why you see it as 'defending', i'm just trying to understand your opinion as it's so at odds with my own, i'm not attacking you
I think there is actually more of a case to argue that something like a Focus RS or an Audi RS3 is NOT a hot hatch than there is to argue that the Focus ST isn't one.
Super-lol-what-the-hell-bonkers seems a bit too outside the hot hatch concept.
Super-lol-what-the-hell-bonkers seems a bit too outside the hot hatch concept.