The tolerant Catholic Church

e36Adz said:
Has it ever occurred to you that these 'outdated ideas' may actually be right, and it is we, in the here and now who are wrong?
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Don't cherry pick to make it seem like im saying all religious ideas are wrong. If you want to take pieces of scripture and fit life around them you have to remember context. The world was a very different place when they were written.

e36Adz said:
Certain actions are harmful to oneself. Again, if you do not believe you will ever have to account to anyone for anything then I suppose yeah you can do as you please without fear of any consequence.
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I do what I like; within a moral structure, morals are my guide as they are for the majority of people whatever their sexuality, so long as you have moral fortitude and do not harm others you do not have to answer to anyone. Moral fortitude also protects people from themselves in cases of greed; infidelity, all the general wrong doings, you can say morals can guide you through life better than any written book.
 
I would love hear someone explain why it would be MORALLY WRONG for two brothers to marry and adopt children? Given that they LOVE each other and arent hurting anybody.

Tefal, castiel?
 
Craterloads said:
Dont think this point holds any water these days considering the advancement in technology. Birth defects and other potential problems can be identified in early pregancy and if anything is detected an abortion can be carried out. The chances of birth defects given the correct, amount of attention, with todays technology would eliminate or minimise the chances of birth defect to a neglible percentage.

Given technology is advancing at such a rapid state sooner rather than later this will not be an issue, not to mention they can mess with the genes of the baby even today.

So given the above points, without the medical or health risks is incest morally wrong or right? given that the two "love each other" as you say...
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Unfortunately the medical and long term health risks exist regardless of your suggestion that the widespread gene therapy is available to negate that risk, at what cost I might ask, and is it better to allow closely consanguineous sexual relations and deal with the large increase in birth defects, abortions, and not to mention the problematical issues of Trust between Parents and Children and even Siblings, or is it simply more practical to create a social taboo for the practice......and so this leads to modern morals judging that sibling or parental sexual relations is deemed taboo in today's society....this has not always been the case, and illustrates that morals are very fluid and dependent upon the society in which we live.....which leads us back to the original question of why homosexual marriages are morally wrong, and why they need to be differentiated from heterosexual marriages?
 
Craterloads said:
I dont share your opinion on "gay marriage", the onus is on you buddy, well Castiel mainly.
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what does gay marriage have to do with incest buddy?


You got bitchy when somone asked if your views should be applied to race why is it you see it ok to compare to incest?


Craterloads said:
Irrelevant, we are discussing marriage as being for a man & woman.
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Craterloads said:
Like i said, the discussion is based on marriage being classed as something between a man & woman.

Thats another topic, and is not needed here.
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e36Adz said:
But seriously, can someone who believes we can do 'what we want as long as we are not hurting anyone', answer why they believe a mother and son, or brother and sister, two brothers, two sisters etc cannot marry each other if they are both adults over 25 and both consenting.
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There is an example of twisting the debate, the family 'relations' or 'relationships' in the sense of incest and such were never mentioned but any right thinking and moral person would take it for granted that such relationships can never be right.
 
Castiel said:
Why is it actually MORALLY WRONG for two people who love each other to get married?

:confused:
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I would love hear someone explain why it would be MORALLY WRONG for two brothers to marry and adopt children? Given that they LOVE each other and arent hurting anybody.

My question above was referring to cas's above statement.
 
Craterloads said:
I would love hear someone explain why it would be MORALLY WRONG for two brothers to marry and adopt children? Given that they LOVE each other and arent hurting anybody.

Tefal, castiel?
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I think that is more of a cultural taboo rather than strictly immoral....obviously the genetic argument holds little impact as they would not be procreating.

Interestingly same sex sibling relationships are taboo in western culture but not so much in many Indo-European Cultures, especially with regard to Twins, whether same sex or not....it is apparent in Norse and German Mythology, as well as prevalent in Indonesian and Antipodean creation myths.

However, this doesn't address the issue of why homosexual marriage should be regarded as morally wrong......
 
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Hitman_Leon said:
Don't cherry pick to make it seem like im saying all religious ideas are wrong. If you want to take pieces of scripture and fit life around them you have to remember context. The world was a very different place when they were written.
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Sorry I wasn't trying to cheery pick but you raised an important point. A lot of people like yourself do believe that 'certain' practices are outdated, but my point was that someone who believes that Gods laws are the highest laws, will also believe they can never be outdated. Hence why it is difficult for the two opposing parties to see eye to eye.

Hitman_Leon said:
I do what I like; within a moral structure, morals are my guide as they are for the majority of people whatever their sexuality, so long as you have moral fortitude and do not harm others you do not have to answer to anyone. Moral fortitude also protects people from themselves in cases of greed; infidelity, all the general wrong doings, you can say morals can guide you through life better than any written book.
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But most of that is dictated by the society you have been brought up in. Some societies may have abhorrent practices which seem perfectly normal to the people living there if that is what they have grown up in. Can we tell them they are wrong? Do we just go by our own desires, judgements? Who is right and who is wrong, or is everyone right?
 
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Craterloads said:
Dont think this point holds any water these days considering the advancement in technology. Birth defects and other potential problems can be identified in early pregancy and if anything is detected an abortion can be carried out. The chances of birth defects given the correct, amount of attention, with todays technology would eliminate or minimise the chances of birth defect to a neglible percentage.

Given technology is advancing at such a rapid state sooner rather than later this will not be an issue, not to mention they can mess with the genes of the baby even today.
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Yeah... really not very convincing here.
 
Hitman_Leon said:
There is an example of twisting the debate, the family 'relations' or 'relationships' in the sense of incest and such were never mentioned but any right thinking and moral person would take it for granted that such relationships can never be right.
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This is an example of talking out of your rear end. It is a very simple question which no one seems to be able to answer yet previously it was all 'do as you please as long as you are hurting no one'.

Oh but you have stated this is 'not right', please do explain why?
 
spudbynight said:
So if they were infertile then you would have no problem with a brother a sister marrying?
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I wouldn't have a problem with them marrying whatever the fertility situation between them was.....I am morally ambiguous about the matter between adult siblings who are consenting and in a position to consent.

I think that the social and cultural taboos that have grown out of the reasons for stopping sibling marriage can be argued against simply with the advent of contraception....however there are other issues related to close family incestuous relationships, not least of all the psychological impact on the less dominant Sibling, or more importantly the Child of a Parent...there are other issues rather than just the genetic ones with allowing such relationships, most of which are patently obvious.
 
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