BT & Talk Talk lose Appeal

You are depriving the copyright holder of a sale of their content.
You can argue that the person who downloaded it was never intending to buy it, in some cases that may be true, but ultimately if you downloaded something and watched it (in the case of a film), or played it (game) or installed it (program) you clearly had enough interest to want to see the content, otherwise why would you have even bothered?

When I was younger and didn't have the money to buy loads of games, I pirated loads. The vast majority resulted in my playing for an hour or two, going "meh", and deleting the game. Not only did I not have enough interest to actually buy any of those games, I didn't even have the money to do so.

Morally what I did was wrong, but it didn't result in any lost sales.

I did the same with music, before mp3 stores were so prolific. I would download masses of tracks. Trawl through them at my leisure, then buy the ones I actually loved and deleted the rest.

Hell, I pirated Psychonauts, played it for 4 hours, and enjoyed it so much I went out and bought it straight away to support the developer, and also purchased Brutal Legend and Costume Quest off the back of it.

Same with ME1. Pirated, loved it, bought it, and pre-ordered both ME2 and ME3 off the strength of it.

This sort of thing might be an exception rather than a rule, but it shows that the "lost sales" figures are not accurate.
 
Maybe one day the multimedia companies will see providing a good value service as the best solution to their problem.

They can only push piracy so far underground.

But what's considered a good value service?

Is iTunes too expensive? Is Spotify not good enough? WHat about Netflix or Love Film?

By good value do you actually mean free?
 
Well all I can say is I pirated a majority of PC games when I was younger but since steam has taken off I have yet to pirate one game, I'm one of these people that said I will pay for a decent streaming service the day it comes out, within ten minutes of Netflix hitting the UK I signed up straight away, but the content was lacking, and then I discovered that I could gain access to the US library, I fell in love with the service, my torrenting went down by about 80% and I was glad to be paying the very respectable price, although I would pay double to be able to have the top US serials on there day one.

What's crazy is the region rights on content, atm I'm paying for Netflix and very rarely torrent, I'm happy with that, but say I get blocked from the US Netflix content, then I'll be cancelling my subscription and going back to relying wholly on torrenting again, and then the rights holders lose out on my cash, it's madness seriously, people are genuinely willing to pay, but just give us the service we want.

I'm sure this has already been quoted in here but Gabe Newell owner of Steam understands this,

"In general, we think there is a fundamental misconception about piracy. Piracy is almost always a service problem and not a pricing problem. For example, if a pirate offers a product anywhere in the world, 24 x 7, purchasable from the convenience of your personal computer, and the legal provider says the product is region-locked, will come to your country 3 months after the U.S. release, and can only be purchased at a brick and mortar store, then the pirate's service is more valuable. Most DRM solutions diminish the value of the product by either directly restricting a customers use or by creating uncertainty."


This statement echoes my own sentiments on the matter.
 
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You are depriving the copyright holder of a sale of their content.

No you aren't. Your statement would only be true if there were a finite number of copies, meanwhile, in reality, taking a copy does not prevent them from selling the same number of copies as they would have otherwise sold.

Since you seem to be having difficulty grasping the concept of "copying", hopefully this will help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copying

You can argue that the person who downloaded it was never intending to buy it, in some cases that may be true, but ultimately if you downloaded something and watched it (in the case of a film), or played it (game) or installed it (program) you clearly had enough interest to want to see the content, otherwise why would you have even bothered?

Do you think that the guy with 6TB worth of downloads would really have bought (or even been able to afford!) all of that content?
Do you think the 14 year old who downloads 3-4 of the latest games every month would have gone out and bought them with his £10/week pocket money?
Do you think everyone who's downloaded Photoshop to edit a couple of pictures and mess around with it would have gone out and spent £500 on a copy?

Have you never watched the trailer for a film that looked really good, then gone and spent £20 in the cinema or on the DVD and it's been terrible and you've felt ripped off? How about bought an album, only to find out there's only 1 decent track on there? Never bought a game only to play it for 20 mins and realise quite how **** it is? (looking at you Prototype :mad:)

While you may have an infinite amount of disposable income, there are many of us who don't and that means we are keen to only spend it where we will get good value.

I agree, there will always be those wanting a free lunch.
Even if content providers drop their prices, there will still be people wanting it for nothing.

Except you have already stated yourself that people are willing to pay for it.

That's because if Channel 4 buys a TV series from a Studio, they only have the right to show it in the UK. The Studio has agreed a deal with another company to show it elsewhere, if 4OD had made it available worldwide, it would undermine that somebody else had paid to show it in their country.

Which is where media companies need to pull their fingers out of their ***** and streamline/consolidate their services.

The internet isn't new, and piracy has been around for a long time, it isn't as if this has been sprung on them overnight, they have had years to prepare, but instead have wasted time chasing the symptoms.

It's obvious that you work in the film industry, you're showing the same blinkered, lack of forward thinking that is reason why the industry will never solve the piracy issue - looking at it from the wrong angle.

I'd argue that things are slowly changing, at least with film.
In the past year we've had LoveFilm launch a streaming service, then at the end of the year Netflix, which brought HD and competition to the market. With Music there are now numerous services offering a monthly fee for access to streaming, even on the go.

It shouldn't have taken this long.

Why shouldn't they also be going after a major source of piracy at the sametime?

Because this wont reduce piracy, all it will do is:

A) Punish legitimate users.
B) Push pirates to an alternative source.
C) Waste money which could otherwise be spent on actually fixing the problem.
 
But what's considered a good value service?

Is iTunes too expensive? Is Spotify not good enough? WHat about Netflix or Love Film?

By good value do you actually mean free?

I want all the media in the world, maybe a choice of HD, on one service for a reasonably good price. I don't want a bit here, abit there, abit on-demand, abit pay per view. I want 1 catalogue with everything i need.

Currently the market is designed to squeeze every last penny out the consumer. The market also encourages manufactured media, the artificial production and marketing of branded music is a massive part of the industry and as such doesn't like independant artists and doesn't cater for them.
 
I want all the media in the world, maybe a choice of HD, on one service for a reasonably good price. I don't want a bit here, abit there, abit on-demand, abit pay per view. I want 1 catalogue with everything i need.

Currently the market is designed to squeeze every last penny out the consumer. ...
To summarise, you want a service but don't want to pay the price demanded by the service provider :rolleyes:
 
I don't want to go into discussing why a download does not equal a 'lost sale', as this has been covered on many other respectable sites such as TechDirt and Ars Technica.

That's just the counter to this side of the argument though.

Like I said, I don't doubt that there are some people who never intended to purchase the product in the first place, or go see the film. But you can't deny that there are many who would have done, but decided to take it without paying instead.



That's the point, people want the content, but if there are unnecessary restrictions on content or poor value for money, then why should they put up with it?

So it's ok to take it illegitimately because you don't like the price or it doesn't meet the way you want it? That's your justification is it?


Some of the shows on 4OD are actually only available if you aren't in the UK, bizarrely. I understand that there are deals made, but the Internet/Web is a global entity and market. It is wrong to then try and constrain it to locations based on outdated business models.

It's not about trying to constrain it, it's the only way this model can work.
If I make and fund a new serialised TV drama called "Super Gypsy Party", the only way I can make any money from that is to sell it to a television network, who will then be able to sell advertising space during the show.

I then agree deals with television networks in other countries, perhaps a deal in the UK to allow it to be shown on an obscure Sky channel in 2 years time.

If it was only sold to one TV company, who then broadcast it on the internet worldwide, my fictional company who created the show get's very little in the way of return and then we stop producing anymore shows, because it no longer works as a business.


What are the costs of launching it worldwide? The two main costs I can see are distributing the film itself, and then the marketing. Marketing doesn't have to be hugely expensive, especially if they make use of advertising networks available on the Internet.

It can be as much as half or even more than the actual budget of the film.

You are extremely misguided if you think you can launch a film on only the internet with very little money behind it.

You need Print, Television, Radio, Internet, Billboard ads. Promotions, star interviews etc.

Distribution is also hugely expensive, so while the likes of big popcorn movies like Transformers has the budget to launch worldwide and market it itself worldwide at the sametime, much smaller films can't. As I said before, they need to be able to earn some box office takings before they can pay the distribution and marketing costs to launch in other countries.


There's no reason why these shows couldn't have existed on a paid for service such as LoveFilm. If a channel doesn't like it, then tough, it is a competitive market and someone else will take up the offer of distributing the content.

Sorry, but you are totally wrong.

As I explained above, Television Shows are driven by Television and it's advertising revenue. While perhaps you only watch online services, you need to remember that you are not the majority, it's not the main viewing medium.

LoveFilm and similar will likely get these shows once they've run their course on television.


They shouldn't be going after major sources of piracy because it is the symptom of a bigger problem, not the cause itself. It's a waste of money, as no matter what you do to censor things you don't like on the Internet, something else will always pop up to undo the work you've just done. The money could be better spent on delivering better services and value for money so that people do not download illegally.

As I've said before, you will never remove piracy, but you can't just sit by and let it go on while it's so rife. If illegal torrents, which are downloaded by thousands get reduced then, while I don't doubt clever pirates will have somewhere else to go, you've reduced the numbers until some other method creeps up in popularity.
 
I want all the media in the world, maybe a choice of HD, on one service for a reasonably good price. I don't want a bit here, abit there, abit on-demand, abit pay per view. I want 1 catalogue with everything i need.

Currently the market is designed to squeeze every last penny out the consumer. The market also encourages manufactured media, the artificial production and marketing of branded music is a massive part of the industry and as such doesn't like independant artists and doesn't cater for them.

Ok, and how much would you be willing to pay for that?
 
To summarise, you want a service but don't want to pay the price demanded by the service provider :rolleyes:

I don't like getting screwed by a cartel abusing an oligopolistic industry.

Don't be a tool all your life lolhausen, you can atleast try and get your head around reality before formulating an opinion.
 
No you aren't. Your statement would only be true if there were a finite number of copies, meanwhile, in reality, taking a copy does not prevent them from selling the same number of copies as they would have otherwise sold.

As I said to Blackdragon, this is just the counter to the other side of the argument. While I agree there are plenty who may have never intended to purchase something, there are still those who would have done, but decided to take it for nothing instead.


Do you think that the guy with 6TB worth of downloads would really have bought (or even been able to afford!) all of that content?
Do you think the 14 year old who downloads 3-4 of the latest games every month would have gone out and bought them with his £10/week pocket money?
Do you think everyone who's downloaded Photoshop to edit a couple of pictures and mess around with it would have gone out and spent £500 on a copy?

As I said above, there will be those who could or may have done, but decided it was cheaper to take it for nothing.

Have you never watched the trailer for a film that looked really good, then gone and spent £20 in the cinema or on the DVD and it's been terrible and you've felt ripped off? How about bought an album, only to find out there's only 1 decent track on there? Never bought a game only to play it for 20 mins and realise quite how **** it is? (looking at you Prototype :mad:)

Of course.
But that's why we also have ways of reading reviews, which have existed long before the internet and has only become better to get balanced opinions since it's creation.

While you may have an infinite amount of disposable income, there are many of us who don't and that means we are keen to only spend it where we will get good value.

But take what you want when you can't afford it, or don't like the price... right?


Except you have already stated yourself that people are willing to pay for it.

*Yawn*

It's akin to paying a thief access to his lock up to take whatever items you feel like. Once again, this is not the same as a legitimate service like LoveFilm operating within the law.


It's obvious that you work in the film industry, you're showing the same blinkered, lack of forward thinking that is reason why the industry will never solve the piracy issue - looking at it from the wrong angle.

Where as you are just in a huff because it means you might loose access to pirated material.


Because this wont reduce piracy, all it will do is:

A) Punish legitimate users.
B) Push pirates to an alternative source.
C) Waste money which could otherwise be spent on actually fixing the problem.

It will reduce piracy though.
If the access to illegitimate torrents is reduced, then thousands of people suddenly won't be able to take pirated material. While I agree it doesn't stamp out piracy altogether and the people who are very involved in it will, and likely already have other means, it's still reduced it.

Inregards to your point C, you constantly harp on about nothing being done, when they are. As I said in another post, in the past year we've seen two online streaming services launch, one in HD and deals agreed to bring newer films all the time. Things are changing and they can bring about changes while fighting piracy as well.
 
To summarise, you want a service but don't want to pay the price demanded by the service provider :rolleyes:

And what is the price demanded by the service provider for this fictional service? :rolleyes:

That's just the counter to this side of the argument though.

Like I said, I don't doubt that there are some people who never intended to purchase the product in the first place, or go see the film. But you can't deny that there are many who would have done, but decided to take it without paying instead.

You keep relying on this as the basis of your argument, and yet you can't deny that there are many who had only a passing interest in the product, but because they were able to get it without significant investment decided to give it a shot, and were so impressed they subsequently decided to buy it.

The problem with using either of these demographics in an argument is that there are no figures to back either of them up, so they are essentially irrelevant, as they could in fact completely cancel them out.

Basing your argument on flawed and irrelevant suppositions is just going to get your point of view ignored, when in fact behind it all you might actually have something of value to add.

So it's ok to take it illegitimately because you don't like the price or it doesn't meet the way you want it? That's your justification is it?

No one is saying it's ok, or justifying it - we're merely stating the reasons why it happens, and giving suggestions on better solutions to the issue. If the media industry is too closed minded to see that, then they only have themselves to blame.

It's not about trying to constrain it, it's the only way this model can work.
If I make and fund a new serialised TV drama called "Super Gypsy Party", the only way I can make any money from that is to sell it to a television network, who will then be able to sell advertising space during the show.

I then agree deals with television networks in other countries, perhaps a deal in the UK to allow it to be shown on an obscure Sky channel in 2 years time.

If it was only sold to one TV company, who then broadcast it on the internet worldwide, my fictional company who created the show get's very little in the way of return and then we stop producing anymore shows, because it no longer works as a business.

Being perfectly honest, if you were to churn out the kind of rubbish your title suggests, I don't think anyone here would be particularly bothered if you went out of business ;)

And therein lies another problem. Media companies churn out the same mass produced drivel over and over again, and still expect us to pay a price more suitable for a quality product, they then have the audacity to complain that reduced sales is due to piracy, rather than accept the fact that no one really wants to pay £40 for Call of Duty 7896 or the box set of My Big Fat Dog's Uncle's 7th Cousin's Greek Gypsy Big Brother with the Kardashian's Embarrasing Bodys.

You are extremely misguided if you think you can launch a film on only the internet with very little money behind it.

You need Print, Television, Radio, Internet, Billboard ads. Promotions, star interviews etc.

Similarly to the previous point, a good product will sell itself - just take a look at Minecraft as an example. No advertising, and yet it sold over a million copies while still in Beta.

Distribution is also hugely expensive, so while the likes of big popcorn movies like Transformers has the budget to launch worldwide and market it itself worldwide at the sametime, much smaller films can't. As I said before, they need to be able to earn some box office takings before they can pay the distribution and marketing costs to launch in other countries.

But it doesn't need to be. How much <really> does it cost to ship a digital copy to a cinema?

How much <really> does it cost to set up a server with the capacity to distribute a movie to a large market?

I'd be willing to put money on the fact that it's less than has been wasted on DRM and other anti-piracy methods.

Sorry, but you are totally wrong.

As I explained above, Television Shows are driven by Television and it's advertising revenue. While perhaps you only watch online services, you need to remember that you are not the majority, it's not the main viewing medium.

LoveFilm and similar will likely get these shows once they've run their course on television.

See points above

As I've said before, you will never remove piracy, but you can't just sit by and let it go on while it's so rife. If illegal torrents, which are downloaded by thousands get reduced then, while I don't doubt clever pirates will have somewhere else to go, you've reduced the numbers until some other method creeps up in popularity.

So you think it's ok to alienate paying customers (and potentially push them to illegal means) in order to prevent a small fraction of piracy?

Ok, and how much would you be willing to pay for that?

£50-60/month would seem like a reasonable price to me.

Bear in mind an average Sky package is £30-40, Spotify £10, LoveFilm £10-15.
 
It's akin to paying a thief access to his lock up to take whatever items you feel like. Once again, this is not the same as a legitimate service like LoveFilm operating within the law.

I take it you still don't quite understand this "copying" thing then? :rolleyes:
 
I take it you still don't quite understand this "copying" thing then? :rolleyes:

It's still taking something you haven't paid for, regardless of which way you try and look at it or throw definitions of what the word 'copy' means at me.

The person with the pirated material has no legal right to make a copy and share it with millions, then charge people access to it.
 
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You keep relying on this as the basis of your argument, and yet you can't deny that there are many who had only a passing interest in the product, but because they were able to get it without significant investment decided to give it a shot, and were so impressed they subsequently decided to buy it.

The problem with using either of these demographics in an argument is that there are no figures to back either of them up, so they are essentially irrelevant, as they could in fact completely cancel them out.

Which is why you can just as easily say it's a lost sale.
So given there is no way of really knowing how many people then buy something because of piracy, is it really wrong of them to want try and kerb it?

Basing your argument on flawed and irrelevant suppositions is just going to get your point of view ignored, when in fact behind it all you might actually have something of value to add.

Your welcome to ignore me if you like, but this a public discussion forum, the point of which is to have an open debate.

Being perfectly honest, if you were to churn out the kind of rubbish your title suggests, I don't think anyone here would be particularly bothered if you went out of business ;)

And therein lies another problem. Media companies churn out the same mass produced drivel over and over again, and still expect us to pay a price more suitable for a quality product, they then have the audacity to complain that reduced sales is due to piracy, rather than accept the fact that no one really wants to pay £40 for Call of Duty 7896 or the box set of My Big Fat Dog's Uncle's 7th Cousin's Greek Gypsy Big Brother with the Kardashian's Embarrasing Bodys.

This is another typical pirate type response.
Just because you don't like the content doesn't mean you can take it for nothing. If you think Call Of Duty has been rehashed too many times, don't play it.


Similarly to the previous point, a good product will sell itself - just take a look at Minecraft as an example. No advertising, and yet it sold over a million copies while still in Beta.

Of course there will internet success stories, but you are talking about an online game, not marketing a movie, which my previous post was about.


But it doesn't need to be. How much <really> does it cost to ship a digital copy to a cinema?

It still costs money because each digital copy has to be encoded with an encryption key, so it can only be used in one cinema... to stop piracy.

How much <really> does it cost to set up a server with the capacity to distribute a movie to a large market?

Distribution isn't done this way, again to prevent piracy.
The film is usually sent on a usb stick or small hard drive.

Digital isn't the only distribution method, there are still thousands of cinemas worldwide which use film prints, which again has to be paid for and distributed.



So you think it's ok to alienate paying customers (and potentially push them to illegal means) in order to prevent a small fraction of piracy?

How does blocking access to sites hosting illegal torrents alienate paying customers?
 
It's still taking something you haven't paid for, regardless of which way you try and look at it or throw definitions of what the word 'copy' means at me.

The person with the pirated material has no legal right to make a copy and share it with millions.

Then stop using analogies based around theft :rolleyes:

Which is why you can just as easily say it's a lost sale.

And you are thoroughly missing the point.

Let me spell it out in numbers for you:

10 people would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it.

10 people buy it, but wouldn't if they hadn't pirated first.

Net effect = 0

So given there is no way of really knowing how many people then buy something because of piracy, is it really wrong of them to want try and kerb it?

Not at all. Provided it's done in the right way.

This is another typical pirate type response.
Just because you don't like the content doesn't mean you can take it for nothing. If you think Call Of Duty has been rehashed too many times, don't play it.

I think we've already been over the fact that I haven't actually pirated anything for about 10 years?

And I don't play it - I might rent a copy if I've got nothing better to do, but there's no way in hell I'd ever buy it.

Of course there will internet success stories, but you are talking about an online game, not marketing a movie, which my previous post was about.

And the only reason they are different is because a small independent game developer is willing to get with the times rather than struggling to hold onto an outdated business model.

It still costs money because each digital copy has to be encoded with an encryption key, so it can only be used in one cinema... to stop piracy.

TrueCrypt is free.

Distribution isn't done this way, again to prevent piracy.
The film is usually sent on a usb stick or small hard drive.

I actually meant for distribution to customers, but if we're talking about to cinemas still, USB sticks/harddrives and worldwide shipping cost pennies compared to movie budgets.

Digital isn't the only distribution method, there are still thousands of cinemas worldwide which use film prints, which again has to be paid for and distributed.

Granted film prints are more expensive, however this is on the decline.

How does blocking access to sites hosting illegal torrents alienate paying customers?

Because it's not blocking access to sites hosting illegal torrents, it's potentially completely removing internet access from paying customers who
happen to download legal software from a site which happens to also host illegal content.
 
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No it isn't, and I've seen people point this out to you time and time again. Just concede this point ffs.

You didn't quote all of my text, so I've done it for you again.

It's still taking something you haven't paid for, regardless of which way you try and look at it or throw definitions of what the word 'copy' means at me.

The person with the pirated material has no legal right to make a copy and share it with millions, then charge people access to it.
 
Then stop using analogies based around theft :roll eyes:

It's copyright infringement and taking something which you haven't paid for, no matter what way you try and dress it up with armchair lawyer speak.


And you are thoroughly missing the point.

Let me spell it out in numbers for you:

10 people would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it.

10 people buy it, but wouldn't if they hadn't pirated first.

Net effect = 0

Given that your previous post was about no figures being available on piracy, you've just contradicted yourself there by trying to make up numbers.


I think we've already been over the fact that I haven't actually pirated anything for about 10 years?

Pirated anything yourself?
Or downloaded pirated material?


And I don't play it - I might rent a copy if I've got nothing better to do, but there's no way in hell I'd ever buy it.

But by renting it, you are still interested in it.


And the only reason they are different is because a small independent game developer is willing to get with the times rather than struggling to hold onto an outdated business model.

Again you are talking about a game, which started online with a tiny team. This same method can't be applied every other sector of the industry.


TrueCrypt is free.

What's that got to do with anything?

The encryption software is managed by the projector company, such as Dolby. The software and hardware used to created a DCDM comes from them, they then generate an encryption key for each cinema.


USB sticks/harddrives and worldwide shipping cost pennies compared to movie budgets

Of course its cheap, but you seem to have conveniently forgotten about the marketing aspect, which if you don't do, means you have a film that makes little return because nobody has heard about it.

Granted film prints are more expensive, however this is on the decline.

It is in decline, but it's not going away, especially in foreign countries.


Because it's not blocking access to sites hosting illegal torrents, it's potentially completely removing internet access from paying customers who
happen to download legal software from a site which happens to also host illegal content.

As I've said numerous times now, there is nothing in place yet as to how this will even be managed. So you can't just make claims that loads of innocent people will be disconnected.
 
I'm curious where people stand on downloading TV series through 'illegal' means when there is a paid for TV licence at the address. Music, movies and games are obviously illegal, but downloading a TV show is surely no more harmful than recording said show?

Again, I'd be interested to know where both the absolute anti-piracy people, and the people who understand why so many do stand on this issue.

Downloading music, a movie or a game is pretty clear cut, regardless of the reasoning or justification behind it, but what about these grey areas?
 
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