The tolerant Catholic Church

[hurfdurf]

http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/catholic-church

The Catholic Church gets absolutely obliterated when put under any kind of objective criticism.

 

[Fran]

do you really think they would be so un PC that they would publish stuff the truth that gay parents are worse for the kids?

Researchers get paid to research, not to present a favourable conclusion (well, unless they advise the UK government on drugs policy of course )

Adolescents with Same-Sex Parents
http://people.virginia.edu/~cjp/articles/pwInPress.pdf

Nothing particularly conclusive in there ?
From my own experience I'd reach the same conclusion.

ive met a lot of children of gay parent and the amount of kids that are gay too is unreal

How many is a lot may I ask ?
Because I know of several gay families and none of their children are gay and I've never even seen this issue raised on any LGBT or Catholic forums before.
I'd happily rate my own experience as being more comprehensive than yours.

(How) Does the Sexual Orientation of Parents Matter?
http://faculty.law.miami.edu/mcoombs/documents/Stacey_Biblarz.pdf

Nothing particularly conclusive in there ?

As our anecdotal evidence differs and actual research doesn't support your position either, I'd suggest your conclusions are incorrect or based on imaginary 'evidence'

being gay is all in the mind

That statement leads me to believe that you've never met a gay person in your entire life, sorry.


I have however encountered some minor issues that relate to the lack of a Father figure in Lesbian families, and I doubt particularly rate Homosexual families as being suitable, but I wouldn't like to state that as a position, just a comment.


@hurfdurf
tbh the supporters in that debate didn't do particularly well, the Archbishop did waffle a bit

 

[hurfdurf]

That statement leads me to believe that you've never met a gay person in your entire life, sorry.

Agreed

I have however encountered some minor issues that relate to the lack of a Father figure in Lesbian families, and I doubt particularly rate Homosexual families as being suitable, but I wouldn't like to state that as a position, just a comment.

The same issues that single mothers have, of which there is no concern what so ever, to say nothing of those adopted by gay parents from care homes which are even worse than single parent families, which all the evidence suggest gay parents trump.

 

[Fran]

The same issues that single mothers have, of which there is no concern what so ever, to say nothing of those adopted by gay parents from care homes which are even worse than single parent families, which all the evidence suggest gay parents trump.

Well I wouldn't say there is no concern over single Mothers, apart from regularly being used as a whipping post by successive governments, they do struggle compared to the resources of a conventional family.

I'd agree that putting a child with a family of crocodiles is preferable to leaving it in care. Social services seem to vastly underestimate the damage done by not having a secure home.

I wouldn't say gay parents trump, they present issues of confusion and associated stigma that aren't particularly helpful.
Also from my position very few of them are likely to be Catholic so their moral education is likely to be secular. You can pull your face over that if you wish, but it's an issue that is covered a lot in Faith schools and only briefly in State schools.

 

[batsy]

http://www.cherwell.org/news/uk/2012/03/08/sermon-preaches-accepting-homosexuality

 

[stefk005]

tbh the supporters in that debate didn't do particularly well, the Archbishop did waffle a bit

That debate was crap! At least the side defending the Church were. That poor Archbishop hadn't the foggiest what he was doing. I don't think he'd ever even been on a TV debate. Trust the producers to pick someone who really couldn't hold up any sort of argument against the likes of Fry and Hitchens

 

[stefk005]

I am not seeing any militant or irrational hatred, I am seeing rational criticism and hatred of a organisation that is guilty of many horrible things, the Catholic Church.

I am seeing irrational words though. When you say "the Catholic Church", you are technically referring currently to over a billion people worldwide. If, of course, you are only referring to those directly involved in the running of the Church or its organisations, or to those in ministry, you are still referring to 500,00 odd priests worldwide, 1,400 or so Catholic universities and colleges, roughly 26% of the world's healthcare... to pick out but a few. If you're going to make _general_ comments about such an "organisation" it's not really fair to ascribe the horrible things that have been committed in its name by some individuals.

 

[Hitman_Leon]

its just like parents who have a kid thats go no arms and legs etc

the kids better off dead than having a life of misery

do you really think any kid in the world would choose to have gay parents

no they wouldent

Clearly you escaped from some kind of institutional care or there are genetic issues for your lack of intelligible argument.

 

[RDM]

I am seeing irrational words though. When you say "the Catholic Church", you are technically referring currently to over a billion people worldwide. If, of course, you are only referring to those directly involved in the running of the Church or its organisations, or to those in ministry, you are still referring to 500,00 odd priests worldwide, 1,400 or so Catholic universities and colleges, roughly 26% of the world's healthcare... to pick out but a few. If you're going to make _general_ comments about such an "organisation" it's not really fair to ascribe the horrible things that have been committed in its name by some individuals.

Are you going to be ignoring all the irrational words directed at homosexuality like the last poster complaining about how mean people were being to Catholicism?

Regardless, I think the criticism against the Catholic is warranted. Not the wholesale claiming that they are all pedophiles but the fact that they actively covered very serious crimes against children up. It is also fair to blame the organisation rather than individuals as it went up to, at the very least, Bishop level with some evidence it may even have been a higher level directive. The later damage control pronouncements then attempting to link it to homosexuality was frankly disgusting.

 

[bhavv]

cant beleve people defending same sex parents

its wrong not natural and a bit twisted really isnt it

kid would get bullyed to kingdom come

selfish people

Its not natural to abandon kids, put them up for adoption, or for a straight couple to be so incapable at parenting that their kids are taken away from them and put into foster care, but it happens everyday, and there are never enough people willing to adopt them.

 

[Castiel]

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/08/poll-70-percent-of-britons-oppose-gay-marriage/

Poll: 70 percent of Britons oppose equal*marriage

A ComRes poll commissioned by Catholic Voices has found that 70 percent of two thousand people agreed marriage should only be available to a man and a woman.

70 percent of respondents in the poll released today agreed with the statement: “Marriage should continue to be defined as a life-long exclusive commitment between a man and a woman.”

22 percent disagreed with the proposition.

Fewer, 59 percent, thought gay couples should be “legally recognised through the civil partnership scheme”, but the question did not say whether the alternative was no legal recognition or another form of recognition.

Support for continuing to bar gay couples from marriage was high among all age groups, at odds with many opinion polls which have showed more support for marriage equality among younger generations.

In the 18-24 age group, 66% said they wanted marriage to remain between a man and a woman only. 81% of those above the age of 65 were in favour of retaining exclusively straight marriage.

Support was highest (81 percent) among married people and lowest (53 percent) among those cohabiting. Single and widowed correspondents favoured straight marriage by 60 and 71 percent respectively.

The least support for maintaining the bar on gay marriage came from Scotland, at 63%, where a public consultation on marriage equality finished in December.

84 percent agreed children “have the best chance in life if raised by their own mother and father in a stable, committed relationship” and support generally slightly higher among people with children than those without.

Dr Austen Ivereigh, coordinator of Catholic Voices, said: “Our poll shows that the Government has no mandate to alter an institution which lies at the foundation of our society.

“British people believe that gay relationships should be recognised by the state through civil partnerships.

“But they are clear that marriage is a unique institution which needs to be promoted because of the benefits to children of being raised by a mother and a father.

“These results are a clear warning to Government that it is at odds with the public on this issue.”

68 percent agreed with the statement: “Marriage is important to society and should be promoted by the*state”.

interesting, if unsurprising (although I was mildly surprised that the younger age groups were as opposed as they are) poll that is pertinent to the thread.

 

[bhavv]

Commisioned by 'Catholic Voices', and blatantly biased results.

Similar research from the last several years has shown the complete opposite trend.

 

[spudbynight]

That debate was crap! At least the side defending the Church were. That poor Archbishop hadn't the foggiest what he was doing. I don't think he'd ever even been on a TV debate. Trust the producers to pick someone who really couldn't hold up any sort of argument against the likes of Fry and Hitchens

I am not sure who brought up this debate. I think I know the debate in question but it doesn't really prove anything other than the skill of the debaters in question.

Having captained debating teams in my youth I know that the better debater normally wins rather than the one arguing the "correct" position.

 

[spudbynight]

I am seeing irrational words though. When you say "the Catholic Church", you are technically referring currently to over a billion people worldwide. If, of course, you are only referring to those directly involved in the running of the Church or its organisations, or to those in ministry, you are still referring to 500,00 odd priests worldwide, 1,400 or so Catholic universities and colleges, roughly 26% of the world's healthcare... to pick out but a few. If you're going to make _general_ comments about such an "organisation" it's not really fair to ascribe the horrible things that have been committed in its name by some individuals.

Casual hatred based on poor information and sterotypes is so boring.

I mean are all Muslims terrorists?
Are all Irish people paedophiles?

Of course not - that would be a silly position for someone to take.

 

[Castiel]

Commisioned by 'Catholic Voices', and blatantly biased results.

Similar research from the last several years has shown the complete opposite trend.

So ComRes produce blatantly biased poll results?????

http://www.comres.co.uk/

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/Marriage_Tables_March_2012.pdf

stop embarrassing yourself.

 

[spudbynight]

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/03/08/poll-70-percent-of-britons-oppose-gay-marriage/



interesting, if unsurprising (although I was mildly surprised that the younger age groups were as opposed as they are) poll that is pertinent to the thread.

I am unsurprised at the findings. I fail to see how relevant they are though. I think it is clear that any consultation process is a sham.

 

[Fran]

Commisioned by 'Catholic Voices', and blatantly biased results.

Do you think before posting or is it entirely random ?
Just wondering, because nothing you've said so far has lasted more than a few seconds before being quashed by somebody.

Have another poll:
http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/Coalition_for_Marriage_data_tables_Feb12.pdf

51% that marriage should not be redefined (34% yes, 14% don't know)


The only measure of bias possible in independent research polls is via manipulative wording, which while not perfect IMO isn't particularly biased.

 

[bhavv]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom

Opinion polls have shown varying, but increasing, levels of support for same-sex marriage among Britons.

A 2004 poll by Gallup reported that 52% agreed that 'marriages between homosexuals' should be recognised while 45% said they should not. Support for same-sex marriage among British respondents was 1% higher than Canadians who were asked and 17% higher than Americans. The poll found that 65% supported allowing gay couples to form civil unions.[40] A 2006 Eurobarometer survey reported that 46% of Britons agreed the same-sex marriages should be allowed throughout Europe, support being slightly higher than the EU average of 44%.[41] A poll conducted in September 2008 by ICM Research for The Observer found that 55% of Britons believed that same-sex couples should be allowed to get married while 45% disagreed.[42][43]

An opinion poll conducted in June 2009 by Populus for The Times reported 61% of the British public agreed with the statement 'Gay couples should have an equal right to get married, not just to have civil partnerships', while 33% disagreed. Support was highest among those aged between 25 and 34 where 78% agreed and 19% disagreed. It was lowest amongst those over 65 where 37% agreed and 52% disagreed. A majority of both men and women agreed but support was higher among women (67%) than men (55%). On voting intention, 73% Liberal Democrats, 64% Labour voters and 53% Conservatives agreed that gay couples should have the right to marry.[44][45]

A poll conducted by Angus Reid in July 2010 showed that 78% of people supported either same-sex marriage or civil union for gay couples, with 41% opting for same-sex marriage and 37% opting for civil union. The amount of people who supported no legal unions for gay couples decreased by 3% since August 2009.[46]

According to the 2010 Scottish Social Attitudes Survey, 61 per cent of Scotland's population supports same-sex marriage. Just 19 per cent said they disagreed, while 18 per cent said they neither agreed nor disagreed. In a similar poll in 2002, 42% of Scotland's population supported same-sex marriage. In 2006, 53% of Scots backed same-sex marriage.[47]

In July 2011, a representative survey conducted by Angus Reid Public Opinion showed that 43 per cent of Britons believe same-sex couples in the UK should be allowed to legally marry, 34 per cent think same-sex couples should be allowed to form civil partnerships, but not marry, and 15 per cent would grant no legal recognition to same-sex couples.[48]

 

[D.P.]

So ComRes produce blatantly biased poll results?????

http://www.comres.co.uk/

http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/Marriage_Tables_March_2012.pdf

stop embarrassing yourself.

Even if the data gathering was done correctly, I question the validity of the questionnaire.

84 percent agreed children “have the best chance in life if raised by their own mother and father in a stable, committed relationship” and support generally slightly higher among people with children than those without.

What does that have to do with same sex marriage or even same-sex parenthood. Completely misleading.

“Marriage should continue to be defined as a life-long exclusive commitment between a man and a woman.”

Even this is not a very good question. It is already loaded from the start (continue) and is a triple question (life-long, exclusive commitment, between a man and women.)

Why not simply ask if same-sex civil partnerships that have the same legal implications as marriage should be called marriage?



Besides the dubious nature of the questionnaire, I don't see that it has much pertinence, perhaps merely highlighting the wide spread homophobic beliefs of the populace.

 

[D.P.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_the_United_Kingdom

This is much more informational, not least there are multiple surveys.