The tolerant Catholic Church

[233]

Well the letter was read out at my wife's church this morning and a copy given to all the congregation. My wife left in digust.

good on your wife.

I always thought that churches and religion in general was supposed to be about showing love and tolerance for your fellow man, now because a girl likes carpet or a guy prefers to throw his sausage into someone called brian doesnt make them any less of a christian/muslim/insert random religion here

the sooner these backward religious idiots realise that they are isolating themselves from the decent members of their congregations the better.

better yet if the church wants to play the anti gay card perhaps the government should look at removing all those special exemptions etc that the church holds

 

[dowie]

Plus the kid will likely be harshly bullied at school, and yea you might say "the worlds changing, people who have such narrow minded views these days are idiots anyway".. its not as simple as that. Kids are kids and especially at secondary school, its very very likely he'll get bullied. Imagine, your a bloke, you have 2 dads and your in sex ed class.. that would be embarassingg and awkward.

A kid from a mixed race marriage would have been at risk of being bullied at school in say the 70s. Its not a reason to stop people from different races marrying and bringing up children any more than it is to stop a gay couple.

Unless anyone comes up with something objective to show that gay parenting is a bad thing then the viewpoints are just a mix of subjective biases/prejudice.

 

[dowie]

the sooner these backward religious idiots realise that they are isolating themselves from the decent members of their congregations the better.

yup - they're not doing themselves any favour and really ought to modernise their views somewhat if they want to stay relevant in society. Opposing something that no one is forcing them to have to adopt personally is just going to alienate people even more.

They might have to start dipping into their billions in assets to keep things running as donations from the decreasing congregation get depleted further.

 

[spudbynight]

I always thought that churches and religion in general was supposed to be about showing love and tolerance for your fellow man, now because a girl likes carpet or a guy prefers to throw his sausage into someone called brian doesnt make them any less of a christian/muslim/insert random religion here

Unfortunately your opinion doesn't really carry much weight on who is more or less of a Christian/Muslim or anything else.

the sooner these backward religious idiots realise that they are isolating themselves from the decent members of their congregations the better.

Woohoo - insults! What a great way to argue your position.

better yet if the church wants to play the anti gay card perhaps the government should look at removing all those special exemptions etc that the church holds

The Church isn't playing any anti-gay card at all.

 

[Xordium]

Honestly though, same sex marriages are fine, not a problem but I think that gay people shouldnt be aloud to adopt children. Im not saying that they would be bad parents (some parents shouldnt be aloud children full stop), i just feel that kids should have the natural feelings of comfort, defensiveness etc etc for their mother and the feelings that would be associated with having a dad.

And this point is just speculation, but im sure it cant be good for the kid believing that every kid has 2 dads or mums, that it was the norm, being told at such a young age about the birds and the bees and all the other underlying issues that would come about with gay parents. You might grow up thinking that all men should be kissing men or all women should kiss women and then start playing kiss chase with all the boys (take it in jest)..

Plus the kid will likely be harshly bullied at school, and yea you might say "the worlds changing, people who have such narrow minded views these days are idiots anyway".. its not as simple as that. Kids are kids and especially at secondary school, its very very likely he'll get bullied. Imagine, your a bloke, you have 2 dads and your in sex ed class.. that would be embarassingg and awkward.

Well, for one, negative-gender enforcement is always shown to be counter-productive. Secondly, just because it is not the norm should not be a case for exclusion - by that logic mixed race couples should not be able to adopt. Thirdly, sex education starts at the age of 5 now. Prior to that then all the little girls are playing with cars and worms just as the boys are pushing prams and playing with dolls. Thirdly, kids are just downright mean at times and if a kid is going to get bullied they will get bullied - kids will always find an excuse. And finally of course challenging the practice of slotting people into traditional gender roles is, most likely, best broken at an early age to prevent some of the more bigoted views we seem to see in today's society.

 

[RDM]

Funnily enough churches down here in gay old Brighton were packed today. Huge amount of support for the bishops letter.

Which I think is a bit of a shame to be honest. I had some vague hope that, at least at a grass roots level, people would be less discriminatory.

 

[Xordium]

Which I think is a bit of a shame to be honest. I had some vague hope that, at least at a grass roots level, people would be less discriminatory.

But if they didn't have grass-roots support they wouldn't do it. It's like politics they are just appeasing the masses. In fact thinking about it this probably is just politics in the upper-echelons of the church and nothing whatsoever to do with god or homosexuality. They are just the vehicles for the power-plays in the same way Iran and Israel is very little to do with nuclear weapons but that is the vehicle that the conflict of interest currently revolves around.

 

[salami1212]

A kid from a mixed race marriage would have been at risk of being bullied at school in say the 70s. Its not a reason to stop people from different races marrying and bringing up children any more than it is to stop a gay couple.

Unless anyone comes up with something objective to show that gay parenting is a bad thing then the viewpoints are just a mix of subjective biases/prejudice.

I do have other points, but, yes thats a true point but I feel that single argument is lacking as that is not the main issue I feel would be detrimental to the child as they grow up which would only come about from same sex parents. Its not as black and white as you make it.

Well, for one, negative-gender enforcement is always shown to be counter-productive.

I take it you mean male and female partners?

Secondly, just because it is not the norm should not be a case for exclusion - by that logic mixed race couples should not be able to adopt.
Im not saying because its not the norm, it should not be aloud.

Thirdly, sex education starts at the age of 5 now. Prior to that then all the little girls are playing with cars and worms just as the boys are pushing prams and playing with dolls.
Seriously, forget about the kiss chasing. Telling your kid certain things at such a young age and seeing certain practises and "norms" surely can't be a good thing

Thirdly, kids are just downright mean at times and if a kid is going to get bullied they will get bullied - kids will always find an excuse.

yep your right, when kids have an excuse, they bully..

And finally of course challenging the practice of slotting people into traditional gender roles is, most likely, best broken at an early age to prevent some of the more bigoted views we seem to see in today's society.
Trust me, i am no bigot.. But a mothers role cannot be replaced by the father.. And the fathers role cannot be replaced by the mother.. Period.

 

[Xordium]

I take it you mean male and female partners?

No, I mean the enforcement of negative-gender stereotypes is never fruitful. The research is not difficult to find.

Trust me, i am no bigot.. But a mothers role cannot be replaced by the father.. And the fathers role cannot be replaced by the mother.. Period.

Would you apply that to my case: a man who stays at home whilst his wife works? Surely my family meets your criteria for being "wrong"? I mean technically speaking I am fulfilling what would be the traditional role of the mother.

 

[salami1212]

No, I mean the enforcement of negative-gender stereotypes is never fruitful. The research is not difficult to find.

How in any way is what im saying steretyping in a negative way gay couples?

Would you apply that to my case: a man who stays at home whilst his wife works? Surely my family meets your criteria for being "wrong"? I mean technically speaking I am fulfilling what would be the traditional role of the mother

Absolutely irrelevant. Im not talking about Household roles or anything along those lines. Im talking about the actual relationship role, not the roles or duties they have around the house..

 

[Xordium]

You're hard to respond to when you quote like that. Your are stating some qualities are held exclusively or should be held exclusively by one sex - or at least it comes across that way. Which comes to the second part and how can they be defined in anything other than such contexts. I'll can give you a few links for when you've finished your reading on action potentials if you really want.

 

[RomanNose]

Nothing of good will come out of what the catholic church is doing. It's just going to division its community with the rest of society even more.

 

[hurfdurf]

The worst thing the Religious people are afraid of is that when gay people are seen as equals to straight, nothing bad will happen what so ever, and it will be just another case of religion being proven wrong yet again.

Just like when women were allowed to vote and religious people were against it because it would "undermine the fabric of society" or something to that affect

Just like when black people were allowed to vote and have rights and religious people were against it because it would "undermine the fabric of society" or something to that affect

Just like when black people could marry white people and religious people were against it because it would "undermine the fabric of society" or something to that affect

Just like when being gay was legalised and religious people were against it because it would "undermine the fabric of society" or something to that affect

 

[Xordium]

The worst thing the Religious people are afraid of is that when gay people are seen as equals to straight, nothing bad will happen what so ever, and it will be just another case of religion being proven wrong yet again.

Just like when women were allowed to vote and religious people were against it because it would "undermine the fabric of society" or something to that affect

Just like when black people were allowed to vote and have rights and religious people were against it because it would "undermine the fabric of society" or something to that affect

Just like when black people could marry white people and religious people were against it because it would "undermine the fabric of society" or something to that affect

Just like when being gay was legalised and religious people were against it because it would "undermine the fabric of society" or something to that affect

Not that I disagree with you here but you are aware I presume you used the same arguments and extrapolations of them in a recent thread. Just saying - you argued an extreme stance against scientific evidence for the sanctioning of total rights for one party against the right of another in all cases.

 

[RDM]

Absolutely irrelevant. Im not talking about Household roles or anything along those lines. Im talking about the actual relationship role, not the roles or duties they have around the house..

So what is it that only a man can bring to a parent/child relationship and what is it that only a woman can bring to a parent/child relationship? What topics should I avoid when talking to my daughter and what topics should I stop my wife dealing with as they are obviously "man things"?

 

[Xordium]

So what is it that only a man can bring to a parent/child relationship and what is it that only a woman can bring to a parent/child relationship? What topics should I avoid when talking to my daughter and what topics should I stop my wife dealing with as they are obviously "man things"?

This is exactly what I want to know. And once you start removing these things then his argument descends down to the depths of 'children will benefit from having two parents whose genitalia are different'. And if you start adding them back in again you are going into gender stereotyping which I am more than happy to demonstrate is kind of silly in this day and age.

 

[|Thomas|]

lets keep it civilized eh

for the record im not homophobic and have a few gay friends, it doesnt bother me if someone is attracted to the same sex.. I dont see why you would, but then im not them so im not feeling what they feel.

Honestly though, same sex marriages are fine, not a problem but I think that gay people shouldnt be aloud to adopt children. Im not saying that they would be bad parents (some parents shouldnt be aloud children full stop), i just feel that kids should have the natural feelings of comfort, defensiveness etc etc for their mother and the feelings that would be associated with having a dad.

And this point is just speculation, but im sure it cant be good for the kid believing that every kid has 2 dads or mums, that it was the norm, being told at such a young age about the birds and the bees and all the other underlying issues that would come about with gay parents. You might grow up thinking that all men should be kissing men or all women should kiss women and then start playing kiss chase with all the boys (take it in jest)..

Do you have any evidence beyond speculation to back up what you've said?

Plus the kid will likely be harshly bullied at school, and yea you might say "the worlds changing, people who have such narrow minded views these days are idiots anyway".. its not as simple as that. Kids are kids and especially at secondary school, its very very likely he'll get bullied. Imagine, your a bloke, you have 2 dads and your in sex ed class.. that would be embarassingg and awkward.

True, but kids get bullied for all sorts of reasons. I'm sure a white kid adopted by black parents would be bullied by someone, as has been pointed out before. It sucks, but that is life. Ultimately it is still better for the child to be in a loving home than to be stuck in the foster care system any longer than they have to be.

 

[spudbynight]

True, but kids get bullied for all sorts of reasons. I'm sure a white kid adopted by black parents would be bullied by someone, as has been pointed out before. It sucks, but that is life. Ultimately it is still better for the child to be in a loving home than to be stuck in the foster care system any longer than they have to be.

We can't use bullying as an argument either way - unless we want to look at banning gingers.

 

[spudbynight]

Nothing of good will come out of what the catholic church is doing. It's just going to division its community with the rest of society even more.

Well - lets look at things objectively. If the Catholic Church is right then surely that remains constant irrespective of how popular it is with non Catholics.

A question for others on this topic. Should the law be changed do you think Catholic Schools should be able to continue to teach that marriage is between a man and a woman?

 

[Xordium]

A question for others on this topic. Should the law be changed do you think Catholic Schools should be able to continue to teach that marriage is between a man and a woman?

No. What other laws then should we allow Catholics to ignore and teach their version of? The Old Testament laws for example?