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More details of Haswell are leaked

Caporegime
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It could be an MCM package:

http://vr-zone.com/articles/mystery...up-the-graphics-ante-further-again/15272.html

GPU performance is meant to be greatly improved. It seems that CD from SA mentioned this a while back(not sure if the numbers are correct though):

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/02/08/haswell-is-a-graphics-monster/

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/09/21/analysis-intel-shows-off-haswell-minus-the-important-bits/

AMD is also investigating used of stacked RAM too(there are pictures):

http://semiaccurate.com/2011/10/27/amd-far-future-prototype-gpu-pictured/

http://semiaccurate.com/forums/showpost.php?p=140928&postcount=26

2013 is going to be a very interesting year for integrated graphics as both Intel and AMD might be using on-die RAM!
 
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It looks that way. Both Intel and AMD are pushing for more and more powerful IGPs. Hawell and Kaveri are pushing more and more graphics performance onto the CPU die. Technologies such as stacked RAM will help alleviate the bandwidth issues for more powerful IGPs.

I wonder which will be the first to exceed an HD6750 or GTS450?? It looks like Kaveri will be using a GPU section equivalent to the HD7750 GPU,ie,it looks like it will have 512 GCN shaders.
 
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Keep the CPU as a CPU.

Things are going in the opposite direction, I think it will be a good thing for all of us.

AMD's CTO Mark Papermaster just put up this slide that shows its HSA (Heterogeneous Systems Architecture) roadmap through 2014. This year we got Graphics Core Next, but next year we'll see a unified address space that both AMD CPUs and GPUs can access (today CPUs and GPUs mostly store separate copies of data in separate memory spaces). In 2014 AMD plans to deliver HSA compatible GPUs that allow for true heterogeneous computing where workloads will run, seamlessly, on both CPUs and GPUs in parallel. The latter is something we've been waiting on for years now but AMD seems committed to delivering it in a major way in just two years.
 
its better to have graphics built into the cpu,that way you can change cpu if needed,im sure well see more 2550k cpu's with no built in graphics,then its up to the end user to choose which cpu fits there needs,plus lucid virtue will use onboard aongside dedicated graphic card to help boost gaming performance ect

and it allows intel to dictate the low end graphic market
 
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Things are going in the opposite direction, I think it will be a good thing for all of us.

Everything has fallen by the wayside. Keep those weak gpu cores on the motherboard and reduce the price of the cpu. Even if by £5 it will be worth it.

No one who bough a 2500K bought if for its GPU capabilities. Keep it on the motherboard so people who dont care about gaming can just buy a motherboard with integrated graphics while the rest of us who want powerful 3d graphics and will 100% buy a Graphics card can save some money.

I think the reason for this change is the ever growing market of weaker computer systems. Go to any major pc retailer and you will see their laptop and netbook ranges are huge while their desktop range has been all but reduced to a few.

These type of CPU's with integrated graphics are good for such systems i.e. laptops.

I'm afraid the dedicated PC tower will become an endangered species in the future and will only be kept alive by enthuisiants and people who need a workstation. It already is like that in a way.
 
That's mostly because major pc retailers, of which there aren't many, sell most of their computers online.

AS for intergrated graphics, the speed increase in quicksync is something that would not have been achieved via dedicating the same space to two more cpu cores, at all, it wouldn't have come close. Its faster than the fastest discrete gpu's at encoding video for those that want to do it. That's simply the way cpu usage is going, flash, encoding, video, its all become gpu accelerated which means an IGP can offer massive speed gains in a few area's while a standard CPU would take far more power, speed, size and cost to accelerate those VERY common usage applications by the same amount.
 
I wish they would just drop the GPU from the highend desktop/laptop parts or make a desktop/laptop part that has more cores and without the GPU for people that want that. I feel like i'm paying for a GPU that I don't use at all and would rather have that as extra cores. I understand where it becomes useful for low end laptops and low end desktops but the high end chips really need to drop the GPU. I really do feel like i'm being ripped off paying for something I make zero use out of here.

I know the argument regarding anything more than 4 cores is not needed for most applications currently but I have applications that can make use of the extra cores if available but none that make good use of the GPU so I feel like i'm paying for Intel's GPU developments that I have zero choice about but i'm the one paying for it and helping Lucid Logic make money again with their Virtu software that is again zero use and only adds more startup items to my PC for 3 programs it says it supports so far in the mode I use it in and I don't even own or ever plan to own these programs that are supported because they are rubbish... What a bad joke.... CPU should mean CPU not CPU+GPU.. They really need to rename these new CPU+GPU devices something else because they are not a CPU only. I invest in CPUs and tired of this new routine Intel has taken on, my laptop has a i7-2670QM in it but guess what I can't have any access to the GPU so why the hell is it there and I paid for it so why can't I use it in any form ? The grapics card in the laptop is an AMD 6970M and I have access only to that, should I not get some sort of refund or price cut on the CPU in this case from Intel ? The law really needs looking into companies selling us stuff on their components that we have no access to, I am really surprised no one has taken this behaviour to a court yet and asked for a refund on something they paid for but can't access it in any form, in my opinion it has been mis sold.

Haswell should be a 6 core or 8 core device by now, they have the space on the CPU die and power requirements to do it and remove the GPU for people that don't need or make use of it. (These companies recently are getting on my nerves and then we have GPU companies offering us 20-30% faster hardware and wanting us to pay £500+ for a GPU that should have been a lot faster but of course they will give us the faster version as it was designed 6 months later at again £500+. They are just milking the users for every penny recently and making out how amazing their new devices are when reality is they are not much faster than last years or 2 year before parts or worse they rename last years parts as this years parts as AMD and Nvidia have done with their laptop GPUs this year and some years before.) I miss the good old days when new parts came out they made you go wow. The wow factor has gone out of the window if you like to keep up with the latest gear. I'm so annoyed with I.T companies recently and these were companies I would look up to, but now I feel they are behaving like crooks in some cases and deliberately try to confuse the general public with their tech blaa blaa statements about their new stuff that most of the general public have no idea what it really means and not giving clear facts like this years A-model is really X% faster than last years model, if they did they would never sell anything I know and would cripple their companies in some cases but they really need to start telling the truth to the general public not intouch with I.T development and for the people intouch with it offer them a choice of a highend part without the low end rubbish added to it. Rant over.. Just had to get that off my shoulders.. I hope some of you agree with what I mean, I have been an I.T consultant for over 20 years now and fell in love with I.T with the Sinclair ZX80 as a very young child and all the way to todays computers and technology. Yes things have changed and become amazing but in recent years I feel some companies are deliberately holding back and not giving us what they can really make just to milk us for aslong as they can.
 
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I wish they would just drop the GPU from the highend desktop/laptop parts or make a desktop/laptop part that has more cores and without the GPU for people that want that. I feel like i'm paying for a GPU that I don't use at all and would rather have that as extra cores. I understand where it becomes useful for low end laptops and low end desktops but the high end chips really need to drop the GPU. I really do feel like i'm being ripped off paying for something I make zero use out of here.

I know the argument regarding anything more than 4 cores is not needed for most applications currently but I have applications that can make use of the extra cores if available but none that make good use of the GPU so I feel like i'm paying for Intel's GPU developments that I have zero choice about but i'm the one paying for it and helping Lucid Logic make money again with their Virtu software that is again zero use and only adds more startup items to my PC for 3 programs it says it supports so far in the mode I use it in and I don't even own or ever plan to own these programs that are supported because they are rubbish... What a bad joke.... CPU should mean CPU not CPU+GPU.. They really need to rename these new CPU+GPU devices something else because they are not a CPU only. I invest in CPUs and tired of this new routine Intel has taken on, my laptop has a i7-2670QM in it but guess what I can't have any access to the GPU so why the hell is it there and I paid for it so why can't I use it in any form ? The grapics card in the laptop is an AMD 6970M and I have access only to that, should I not get some sort of refund or price cut on the CPU in this case from Intel ? The law really needs looking into companies selling us stuff on their components that we have no access to, I am really surprised no one has taken this behaviour to a court yet and asked for a refund on something they paid for but can't access it in any form, in my opinion it has been mis sold.

Haswell should be a 6 core or 8 core device by now, they have the space on the CPU die and power requirements to do it and remove the GPU for people that don't need or make use of it. (These companies recently are getting on my nerves and then we have GPU companies offering us 20-30% faster hardware and wanting us to pay £500+ for a GPU that should have been a lot faster but of course they will give us the faster version as it was designed 6 months later at again £500+. They are just milking the users for every penny recently and making out how amazing their new devices are when reality is they are not much faster than last years or 2 year before parts or worse they rename last years parts as this years parts as AMD and Nvidia have done with their laptop GPUs this year and some years before.) I miss the good old days when new parts came out they made you go wow. The wow factor has gone out of the window if you like to keep up with the latest gear. I'm so annoyed with I.T companies recently and these were companies I would look up to, but now I feel they are behaving like crooks in some cases and deliberately try to confuse the general public with their tech blaa blaa statements about their new stuff that most of the general public have no idea what it really means and not giving clear facts like this years A-model is really X% faster than last years model, if they did they would never sell anything I know and would cripple their companies in some cases but they really need to start telling the truth to the general public not intouch with I.T development and for the people intouch with it offer them a choice of a highend part without the low end rubbish added to it. Rant over.. Just had to get that off my shoulders.. I hope some of you agree with what I mean, I have been an I.T consultant for over 20 years now and fell in love with I.T with the Sinclair ZX80 as a very young child and all the way to todays computers and technology. Yes things have changed and become amazing but in recent years I feel some companies are deliberately holding back and not giving us what they can really make just to milk us for aslong as they can.

uhhmmm, that is called business and what pays the share holders and makes the money to develop. Get off the moral ground, they owe you NOTHING, ZERO, NADDA... If you don't like it then tough, buy something else.

Jeez gets on my nerves, people who winge and moan about the way the world works.

And breath... :)
 
In terms of Intel, their business plan is to lower power and increase acceleration of very common features, hence gpu intergration into the die. They are still persueing high end but, the problem is you are thinking short term. There needs to be an IGP in EVERY Cpu sold in the world, every last one, including high end, for openCL and other standards to become used as standard in EVERY piece of software that can use it, and I mean every single last one.

Right now a few pieces of software use it, not nearly enough, quicksync is limited because companies that can utilise it don't have to, because only 1/50th of the people that use their software(if that) have access to it. its not cost effective, yet, to support it in every single piece of video encoding software. In 2 years when 1/2 their users have an IGP, they will put a lot more effort into it, in 3-4 years when 70-80% of their customers all video software will try to use it as best as possible and you'll find that a quicksync enabled quad core will spank a 16 core no IGP core in that software. But its not just video software, the wider the base of users the more software will be writen to utilise it where possible. Every generation the GPU on die will increase both in efficiency and in features to make it more suitable for use in accelerating more types of software.

CPU's alone are extremely fast at SOME types of data processing and extremely slow at others, an APU is extremely fast at BOTH, it will simply take time for the GPU part to become useful.

If Intel don't push it, and AMD, then we'll never get to the point where software makers use it, that is how the computer industry has always been.

They make more powerful cpu's with more cores when no one used them, and as they became standard more and more software used them, its no different, gpu's get more powerful THEN software starts to require that much power.

In 5 years there will be a x core CPU with X amount of gpu shaders that will be much more versatile and MUCH faster than a CPU with simply 2x cores. The transition happens before the software, that is the way its always been.

Also, the more ridiculous part is, there are already hexcore cpu's, and there WILL be octo core Haswells, just not desktop ones afaik.

It's actually likely they will introduce 6 or 8 core gpu having or not having Haswell's.

The problem is desktop now has dual/quad cores and dual channel mem, triple/quad channel mem increases price drastically as would more cores. They need a cheap "desktop" platform for the masses and making it quad channel and 6-8 cores isn't a viable option at all. There are times when products split up nicely and times they don't.

first i7's had not THAT expensive i7 triple channel memory and faster cpu's, then they moved them to more efficient cheaper midrange platform back on two channel. The quad channel hexcore was too expensive for an upper midrange part, the next platform could have.

Haswell could be like the first i7/i5 platform, dual channel quad core, and a potentially unannounced 6-8 core triple/quad channel platform that isn't as expensive as the current Sandy-E platform.

They've talked about one platform, that doesn't mean it will be the only non high end one so I wouldn't take anything for granted yet.
 
TBH,improvement of IGPs will help PC gaming in the long run,as the base level of PC GPU performance will be raised for lower end desktops and laptops. It will mean more people can run PC games and the PC platform should get more interest from games developers too.
 
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I'm surprised at some of the comments against IGPs. Would people prefer that graphics cards only performed graphics tasks with no gpgpu capabilities (hence no DirectX support, CUDA, OpenGL, OpenCL support, etc)? Advances that may seem trivial today will be much more powerful in a few years.Oh, and not to mention that there are people who buy powerful CPUs and can make use of the integrated graphics. Should Intel/AMD forget them just because some of us don't need the extra features?

Personally I don't use the IGP, but that is only because it is not yet as powerful as my requirements, not because I don't think it's a good idea. I'm happy to know that some of my money is going toward developing new technologies. The idea of having a L4 cache sounds pretty amazing to me, and in the medium to long term it will give me extra computue power (hopefully useful for folding and other gpgpu tasks).
 
So Haswell will still be quadcore cpu even if it comes in two desktop variants?

No possibility of hex or octo core then?

I don't see mainstream hexacores being too far away, as they have been in enthusiast class products for a few years. I can't see Intel introducing octocore products to their mainstream offerings until they have been in the enthusiast products for a while. They have only just started putting them in their high-end server products. I will be among the first to adopt them when they are available though (and by then I expect to see 10 and 12 core high-end and server products, including the rumoured 10 core IB-EP family).
 
i don't see the point from gamers point of view, i'm spending money on a CPU with GPU that i will never use.

its a waste of money for us. & surely a waste on intel part if they do two lines one with & without gpu.
 
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