petrol goes through 140p a litre

Spenty said:
I agree with clv101 on the point that people complain about fuel prices then go out and hammer their cars. Surely if you were that bothered you would drive economically. Although Fox does have a point that there a many drivers who would pay the price no matter what it was, as they're wealthy or their company would pay it.
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And there are people like me - my car is a hobby, I chose to drive a car with a reasonably large engine because I enjoy it. I balance this with a reasonably low annual mileage and a transport mix that includes the use of trains for many of my long distance journeys. As a result, I am not particularly concerned about fuel prices because I simply don't drive far enough.

Yet I'm sure if clv101 saw me on the road in my 3 litre car he'd doubtless assume the very fact I am there means that fuel is not expensive enough.

Odd logic really.
 
Fox - the fact that you, or anyone, sees cars (with all the burning of a useful, finite resource, the local pollution, congestion, accidents, noise, climate change etc.) as a hobby is one of my issues. I'd like a price of fuel such that all those negatives were only associated with near essential fuel use. That means only near essential journeys, carried out in the most efficient vehicles, in the most efficient way.

We can't afford the issues associated with depletion of a finite resource and the local and global externalities for a hobby. Save the fuel and limit the externalities to essential transport and agriculture etc.
 
[TW]Fox;21563619 said:
And there are people like me - my car is a hobby, I chose to drive a car with a reasonably large engine because I enjoy it. I balance this with a reasonably low annual mileage and a transport mix that includes the use of trains for many of my long distance journeys. As a result, I am not particularly concerned about fuel prices because I simply don't drive far enough.

Yet I'm sure if clv101 saw me on the road in my 3 litre car he'd doubtless assume the very fact I am there means that fuel is not expensive enough.

Odd logic really.
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Well that's perfectly fine as you have said you balance it out.
 
That's a silly idea.

And also...

clv101 said:
Sure I drive - but rather than thinking about my own wallet, I'm looking at the bigger picture. Every time I get into my car I see a lot of people burning far more fuel than they might - leading me to think it's too cheap.
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How do you know that people you see driving fast are using more fuel than you? If your car has a tiny engine then you might well burn more fuel as you have to work it to keep steady momentum with fast moving traffic so when you see people overtaking you with bigger engines fairly swiftly it gives the impression they're using more fuel when they're actually not in most cases.

Driving fast isn't really wasting fuel in the sense you're implying.
Driving in the wrong gear, braking randomly for things in the distance and then accelerating again and needlessly idling is, incorrect tyre pressures, poor quality tyres, bad car maintenance etc are waste of fuel on a greater scale.
 
mrk said:
How do you know that people you see driving fast are using more fuel than you?
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That's not what I said, I said they are using "more fuel than they might."

mrk said:
Driving fast isn't really wasting fuel in the sense you're implying.
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Yes it is - all else equal (which is the only way the think about these issues), when someone drives past me on a motorway at over 80mph+ they are wasting a considerably amount of fuel compared to how much they would be using driving under 70mph.
 
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clv101 said:
Fox - the fact that you, or anyone, sees cars (with all the burning of a useful, finite resource, the local pollution, congestion, accidents, noise, climate change etc.) as a hobby is one of my issues.
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Wow... seriously?

So presumably you look down on people who go skydiving, do motorcross, have pleasure boats, partake in motor racing etc as well then?

How dare we have hobbies. It's such a problem, right?

I fly abroad on holiday, do you scorn me for that, too?

The amount of fuel I use is trivial - my hobby isn't so much driving it as it is owning it and enjoying it. I'm spending all day playing about with it today and won't use a single drop of fuel. Pardon me for having a hobby, of course.

But of course in sidetracking like this you for the second time ignore my counter to your earlier point.

Why does the fact very wealthy people in Bentleys can afford to not care about fuel costs mean fuel isn't expensive enough?

Best turn your PC off. How DARE you waste a finite resource arguing with me on the internet.

I notice you are an F1 fan, and thus a massive hypocrite. Your hobby appears to involve cars going round and round in a circle burning fuel purely for enjoyment. How shocking. I take a big issue with that :rolleyes:
 
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clv101 said:
That's not what I said, I said they are using "more fuel than they might."


Yes it is - all else equal (which is the only way the think about these issues), when someone drives past me on a motorway at over 80mph+ they are wasting a considerably amount of fuel compared to how much they would be using driving under 70mph.
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Depends on the car. You can't tarnish people for driving fast because you think they are wasting fuel.

My car is only 2 litres but at a cruising speed of 80MPH it maintains 40MPG, at 70 that increases to about 42MPG.

Such a waste of fuel?
 
mrk said:
Depends on the car. You can't tarnish people for driving fast because you think they are wasting fuel.

My car is only 2 litres but at a cruising speed of 80MPH it maintains 40MPG, at 70 that increases to about 42MPG.

Such a waste of fuel?
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Well, yes - actually - as it'd be even more economical at 70mph than it would at 80mph. That part of his point isn't so much of an issue.
 
A bit more economical, not even more as you put it. I guess this is where our opinions differ on this issue. I don't consider 2MPG to be a waste.
 
[TW]Fox;21564014 said:
Wow... seriously?

So presumably you look down on people who go skydiving, do motorcross, have pleasure boats, partake in motor racing etc as well then?

How dare we have hobbies. It's such a problem, right?

I fly abroad on holiday, do you scorn me for that, too?
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Well, yeah. I wouldn't use your language (look down on, scorn etc) but I think using finite fossil fuels for stuff that isn't really important is a bad idea.
[TW]Fox;21564014 said:
The amount of fuel I use is trivial - my hobby isn't so much driving it as it is owning it and enjoying it. I'm spending all day playing about with it today and won't use a single drop of fuel. Pardon me for having a hobby, of course.
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My point isn't focused on the individual - I'm more thinking about large scale principles.

[TW]Fox;21564014 said:
But of course in sidetracking like this you for the second time ignore my counter to your earlier point.

Why does the fact very wealthy people in Bentleys can afford to not care about fuel costs mean fuel isn't expensive enough?
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This is a tangential point - it isn't only wealthy people being profligate with their fuel use, plenty of people of below average means are also choosing to be relatively inefficient cars, and use them in inefficient ways. If it were ONLY Bentleys etc bombing down the motorway at 80mph+ you may have a point, but in my experience there are just as many old bangers driving profligately.

[TW]Fox;21564014 said:
Best turn your PC off. How DARE you waste a finite resource arguing with me on the internet.

I notice you are an F1 fan, and thus a massive hypocrite. Your hobby appears to involve cars going round and round in a circle burning fuel purely for enjoyment. How shocking. I take a big issue with that :rolleyes:
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Of course I'm a hypocrite! It's pretty much impossible to live one's life 100% aligned with one's world views. That doesn't change my opinion that fuel is currently too cheap - leading to its profligate use, exacerbating problems associated with depletion, exacerbating pollution problems etc...
 
clv101 said:
This is a tangential point - it isn't only wealthy people being profligate with their fuel use, plenty of people of below average means are also choosing to be relatively inefficient cars, and use them in inefficient ways. If it were ONLY Bentleys etc bombing down the motorway at 80mph+ you may have a point, but in my experience there are just as many old bangers driving profligately.
...
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That's because they're cheap to buy. A recent report said that new drivers were much more in favour of EV and energy effecient/Green cars. than us older generations, but were the least able to afford such cars.
 
clv101 said:
Well, yeah. I wouldn't use your language (look down on, scorn etc) but I think using finite fossil fuels for stuff that isn't really important is a bad idea.
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How boring would a life consisting only of things deemed 'important' be? Of all the things you do in life which are the ones that actually make you feel like are glad to be here?

What is the value to the worlds economy of all those things you deem to be a non-important use of hydrocarbons?

Of course I'm a hypocrite! It's pretty much impossible to live one's life 100% aligned with one's world views. That doesn't change my opinion that fuel is currently too cheap - leading to its profligate use, exacerbating problems associated with depletion, exacerbating pollution problems etc...
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Do you not think that these problems are far too large for anything we do in the UK to be of any consequence whatsoever? Whilst we live in a world where Americans pay $4 a gallon and people in Dubai pay 10p a litre it makes almost no odds whether people in the UK pay £1, £2 or £10 a litre. We could all trade in for horses and carts tommorrow and make almost no difference.

On average, across the world, fuel is too cheap. In the UK? No. All we are really doing is damaging our economy to make a point. Fuel duty is quite regressive as well - the rich can pop out and buy a medium sized family saloon car that emits just 109g/km of CO2. It'll be 10 years before that car is available for sub £2k...
 
it's gone up 50p a litre in just over 3 years then bought my current car 3 years ago i remember filling up on the way home thinking 87p per litre was a rip off :(

how long before it hits 1.50 per litre is 3p more going on in tax later this year? seriously thinking of binning my car.

list of prices here over the years

http://www.speedlimit.org.uk/petrolprices.html
 
clv101 said:
Indeed, fuel must be cheap as I still see loads of people buying brand new cars, that use twice as much fuel as others. I still see loads of people, burning up fuel like it's free as they zoom along the motorway at 80mph+ and I still see loads of people tearing around town, breaking heavily at lights and accelerating hard.

I find it hard to take the 'fuel prices are too high' complaints seriously whilst I still see all this behaviour going on.
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Totally agree with this! I see it all the time!

Most people on the roads (especially at commuting times) clearly aren't that fussed about fuel economy.
 
I don't think they even know that ragging it to red lights and braking hard uses more fuel most the time.

So rather than this driving style pointing to suggestions that fuel is too cheap, I think it is purely ignorance and these people then go spend X thousands on a diesel.

I see it everyday on my 80mile commute whilst i drive my gfs 1.2 Clio. Last tank was an average of 49MPG. Probably more than the useless drivers in their diesels.
 
Oh and Clv needs to go visit China, India and the US. He might get an idea of how pointless high fuel tax is for reducing 'finite-resource' consumption.

And genuinely shocked at how much crap I've read on this subject from him and yet he is an F1 fan. That should go to Oxford for the next issue of the dictionary. It's a great explanation of the word hypocrit.
 
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