Do murderers deserve to die?

The Halk said:
You absolutely have to make it a deterrent and not a punishment. They're almost the same thing but you need to do it for the right reasons.

It's fine to have a deterrent as being a fine, imprisonment, electronic tag - even the death penalty if society agrees it. However it should be done as something to dissuade people from committing a crime, rather than done as something to make the victim/society feel better/exact a punishment/eye for an eye/etc.

I'm disgusted when the media interviews the family of a murder victim and they're calling for the death penalty and anybody takes that seriously. Revenge is disgusting and while it's understandable from the family of a victim, we should not be pandering to it at all.

It's a small distinction, but I think it's vital.
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Except it's been proven that horrific punishments are not a deterrent.

The best deterrent is a high success rate in catching criminals, if the punishment is terrible, but there's only a 1% chance you'll be caught for robbing a few grands worth of stuff people will do it (look at all the middle eastern countries with whippings and hand severing).

But if there's a 99% chance you'll be caught but the sentence is only a year in prison people will be much less likely to do it because it's more likely to happen even if it's less unpleasant.


Deterrents work either on increasing rsk of being caught or making the results of being caught so horrific it's not worth even a small risk.

Also if your saying revenge is disgusting deterrents have to be deliberately sadistic to work.
 
bhavv said:
Better education, better rehabilitation, better quality of life, better healthcare, ranked much higher in the best countries to live polls etc.

The UK on the other hand has been heavily declining, not progressing over the last 3-5 years. I dont think we will reach that level of progress.
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At best/worst that's an argument that we need to try harder in the UK to reach the level of high achievers rather than a positive argument that the death penalty would improve things in the UK or indeed that harsher punishment has any beneficial effect whatsoever.

I could potentially see an argument that as an interim measure we should be considering different solutions until we could reach what is perceived to be a higher level but if the argument is that we'll never get there and should stop trying then it just doesn't fly for me at all. Maybe that's just a difference in outlook though.

bhavv said:
Except we dont make them suffer till the end, everyone here wants them rehabilitated with TVs, PS3s and pool tables.
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This sort of exaggeration does your points a disservice, even if they're valid. It often will cause people to doubt the whole of what you post when it can so easily be shown that not everyone here wants prisoners rehabilitated, a good number want to see them executed or imprisoned in extremely harsh conditions for the rest of their natural life.

J-FRO said:
I'm sceptical as to the effects of that.
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To explain further castration does lower testosterone production which will usually lower or eliminate sex drive - I suspect that's where bhavv is driving at. I don't agree with forced castration though.
 
semi-pro waster said:
To explain further castration does lower testosterone production which will usually lower or eliminate sex drive - I suspect that's where bhavv is driving at. I don't agree with forced castration though.
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Yeah I figured as much but thank you all the same. What I'm sceptical about though is this, although it lowers the sex drive due to the lack of hormones produced by the testes, is that enough to stop a paedophile continuing to abuse children or encourage it?
 
dirtychinchilla said:
This article is interesting in that respect.

I'm not going to make a graph, but there is a correlation between people on death row and the proportion of religious people in a state. The top five are, Texas, Virginia, Oklahoma, Florida, and Missouri, all of which are fairly religios (Texas and Florida in particular).
This article describe the correlation between religion and crime. I didn't mean to get an Athiest source, but it does correlate.
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It doesn't.....it is simply made to appear that way. Many of the opponents of the death penalty in those states are supported by or members of religious institutions, For example you use Texas as an example to support your view....I will do likewise:

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/texas-conference-churches

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/statement-catholic-bishops-texas-capital-punishment

Both links oppose the death penalty and both are contrary to the position you advocate with regard to the link between religion and the death penalty in the United States.

For this reason I feel that to bring religion into the debate will cloud the issue as well as detract from the ethical stance of the individual, which in most cases has little to do with their religion or lack of.
 
semi-pro waster said:
To explain further castration does lower testosterone production which will usually lower or eliminate sex drive - I suspect that's where bhavv is driving at. I don't agree with forced castration though.
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and anyone who goes to a gym knows it would only take a few hours to obtain a few months worth of testosterone :p
 
Moses said:
The lethal injection's humane? I guess you haven't heard of all the times it goes wrong, etc...
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even when it goes right it's not humane.


But they say they can't just OD them like say the dignitas clinic does because they can't "send them out on a high".


Let's have a discussion about walking to America, whilst assuming the oceans are made of custard :derp:.
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As long as you can keep your speed u pthe whole way you could do it :p

but as soon as you stop you'll sink >.<
 
No, prison is fine, once they've dropped the soap they won't be wanting to commit another offence for the rest of their days.
 
J-FRO said:
Yeah I figured as much but thank you all the same. What I'm sceptical about though is this, although it lowers the sex drive due to the lack of hormones produced by the testes, is that enough to stop a paedophile continuing to abuse children or encourage it?
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I don't think it would encourage them (further) to abuse children as such but there's certainly no guarantee that it would stop them from abusing children. In some rape cases (perhaps even most) sexual gratification isn't the primary driver, it is about power and the gratification that comes from that which may mean that there is no particular disincentive created where it is a mental problem rather than one stemming from hormones.
 
bhavv said:
Frustration because you lack the ability to comprehend a point of view that differs from your own, even after several pages of reasoned and solid explanation.

You not only sound childish, but uneducated and incapable of learning.
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Sounds somewhat like the pot calling the kettle black.

I also expect my education is better than yours.
 
bhavv said:
Frustration because you lack the ability to comprehend a point of view that differs from your own, even after several pages of reasoned and solid explanation.

You not only sound childish, but uneducated and incapable of learning.
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You are entitled to your own opinion, but when you throw reason and logic to the side and replace it with personal attacks, people's value of your opinion generally decreases.

Just saying.
 
Castiel, those articles you posted are very interesting but both rather outdated! Obviously their opinions haven't reached whoever's in charge because in 15 years nothing has happened unfortunately, whether some of the churches do oppose it or not...
 
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