Double D's inside...

Doesn't work like that in practice though does it. I've driven a bunch of diesels now, and without exception they are hopelessly gutless off boost (below 2000rpm) and are slow to pick up even when yo u are in a workable rev range.
Sometimes I drive my sisters 320d, it's a 3 series so I guess directly comparable to my 328i. It has more torque yet it's awful to drive in comparison. It's all about the delivery, diesels only deliver that headline torque figure at full throttle and full boost. Of course this is true of a petrol too, difference is with a petrol the torque output scales with throttle nicely and in a linear fashion. Diesel is much more of an all or nothing affair, fine on the motorway but really frustrating to drive around town.

a 320d is not compareable to a 328i. You're comparing 4 pot to 6 pot.

4 pot diesels are indeed horrible to drive. Try one with a proper engine :p My car pulls hard from as low as the gearbox allows it to all the way to 4.5k. Two turbos help that though :) infact, its fluidity and effortlessness around town is one of its best attributes.
 
Doesn't work like that in practice though does it. I've driven a bunch of diesels now, and without exception they are hopelessly gutless off boost (below 2000rpm) and are slow to pick up even when you are in a workable rev range.
Sometimes I drive my sisters 320d, it's a 3 series so I guess directly comparable to my 328i. It has more torque yet it's awful to drive in comparison. It's all about the delivery, diesels only deliver that headline torque figure at full throttle and full boost. Of course this is true of a petrol too, difference is with a petrol the torque output scales with throttle nicely and in a linear fashion. Diesel is much more of an all or nothing affair, fine on the motorway but really frustrating to drive around town.

I can't say I've ever been frustrated with driving mine.
 
[TW]Fox;21615669 said:
EddScott is a prime example of this. (Sorry to use you :p) He has recently purchased an Audi A4 2.0 TDI 170 without even viewing it before buying it. Even before it had arrived he had begun the transition to diesel evangelised - about a car he'd never driven! He has no idea how it drove, having never driven a car with the 170bhp engine in it, but he was already in full swing trying to convince himself and others he didn't want a 2.0TFSI anyway. It's just bonkers. What's wrong with saying 'Yea, a 2.0T would have been nice but the fuel economy was too little for me so I had to buy the diesel'? Why does it always have to be about how much torque it has and how in the real world it's basically a V8 and how the 4 cylinder VAG TDI engine is the second coming of your preferred prophet? Nobody really buys a 2.0 TDI because they like the engine they buy it because they either need it or they feel they need it.

Woah there my friend - you presume too much. Where did I attempt to convince myself and others I didn't want the TFSI? Of course I would rather have had a TFSI. I still now think I should have had the TFSI. For the mileage I do now and what I think I'll do in the future I think I could have coped with the petrol MPG compared to the 170 which as we all know isn't exactly awesome.

Don't forget I'm coming from a vehicle that managed low 20s at best so anything petrol or diesel would have been cheaper. If you remember I did post about the A4 B6 1.8T Quattro which took a pasting on here because of its high emissions.

I'm not going to go into exactly why I ended up with this A4 but I have it and its mine and I have to make the best of it. I was very luke warm about it and even considered handing it back. Believe it or not the car was pretty much free so diesel or not I can't complain.

As for not having driven the 170 manual, it was hardly going to be that much different to my mothers 140 auto or her previous B6 1.9 manual so I had a fair idea how the 170 would feel.
 
4 pot diesels are indeed horrible to drive. Try one with a proper engine :p My car pulls hard from as low as the gearbox allows it to all the way to 4.5k. Two turbos help that though :) infact, its fluidity and effortlessness around town is one of its best attributes.

You have a 335i do you not?

Hardly a fair comparision to a 4 pot oil burner is it?
 
Also i agree about diesels being about cost. I would have a 335i if i didnt do 20k a year. But i'd rather have a 335D than a 330i, so mine is a cost vs performance trade off.
 
well yea, but Clarkey was comparing a 320D, 4 pot 2 litre diesel to a 328i, 6 cylinder (3 litre?) petrol. Comparing a 330D to a 328i is a much fairer comparison.
 
Doesn't work like that in practice though does it. I've driven a bunch of diesels now, and without exception they are hopelessly gutless off boost (below 2000rpm) and are slow to pick up even when you are in a workable rev range.
Sometimes I drive my sisters 320d, it's a 3 series so I guess directly comparable to my 328i. It has more torque yet it's awful to drive in comparison. It's all about the delivery, diesels only deliver that headline torque figure at full throttle and full boost. Of course this is true of a petrol too, difference is with a petrol the torque output scales with throttle nicely and in a linear fashion. Diesel is much more of an all or nothing affair, fine on the motorway but really frustrating to drive around town.

+1

The off boost performance, turbo lag and then the peaky delivery of high performance diesels makes them anything but effortless in general day to day driving for a keen driver. When pressing on, the poor off boost performance, the narrow rev range in which the engine works, makes it feel like you are forever having to change gear.
The twin and triple variable sized turbos fitted to some of the premium diesels aim to counter exactly these problem, but the smaller 4 pot diesels don't have this luxury.
What hasn't been mentioned is that the diesel lumps are often heavier than their petrol counterparts which is often to the detriment of the handling of the car which again isn't ideal in an enthusiasts car.

The diesel engines do of course make perfect sense in many scenarios, but like the others above, it doesn't seem to make sense to spend thousands modifying a diesel hatch, when a better result can be achieved by starting with the petrol version of the car.

If you get to the point that you are spending that much to gain performance from a car, then fuel costs and mpg soon become relatively insignificant to the total cost of ownership - or if they were significant - then surely you'd end up driving frugaly for so much of the time to keep mpgz high that the performance of the car becomes wasted?

(Just to clarify, I'm not talking about someone mapping their diesel to give it a bit more performance for the weekends, while it chugs away giving 55mpg on their 20k yearly commute, but the more extreme and expensive mods required to take the cars to some of the performance levels mentioned above.)

Each to their own, but I'll happily take a quiet, flexible and willing petrol engined car over a diesel alternative until such a day that I'm wafting up and down motorways for 10s of thousands of miles a year or towing on a weekly basis, especially if I'm in the market for something fun to drive.
 
Woah there my friend - you presume too much. Where did I attempt to convince myself and others I didn't want the TFSI? Of course I would rather have had a TFSI. I still now think I should have had the TFSI. For the mileage I do now and what I think I'll do in the future I think I could have coped with the petrol MPG compared to the 170 which as we all know isn't exactly awesome.

Don't forget I'm coming from a vehicle that managed low 20s at best so anything petrol or diesel would have been cheaper. If you remember I did post about the A4 B6 1.8T Quattro which took a pasting on here because of its high emissions.

I'm not going to go into exactly why I ended up with this A4 but I have it and its mine and I have to make the best of it. I was very luke warm about it and even considered handing it back. Believe it or not the car was pretty much free so diesel or not I can't complain.


Then I apologize for using yourself as the example :)
 
mirsix just completely ignored all of foxes points. Shame as fox made a real good point in that post. mrsix stop getting so offended and upset when someone doesn't agree with your diesel ways.
 
The A4 Avant 1.8T Quattro petrol B6 is in band K so was going to be about £250 to tax.

I guess one OK thing about diesels is the tax is a bit cheaper. Think mines about £180.

Amusingly, a work colleague bought a Mazda MPV diesel and that was in band K - cars aren't his forte :D
 
mirsix just completely ignored all of foxes points. Shame as fox made a real good point in that post. mrsix stop getting so offended and upset when someone doesn't agree with your diesel ways.

I think you'll find that MrSix is probably getting upset by the way Fox responds to posts rather than what is put in the posts.

We all know very well by now Fox's manner and it isn't the first time the good sense that is posted by him (occasionally ;) ) gets lost in the one upmanship manner in which he posts. Possibly 6 should know by now.
 
Exactly the point i was going to make, why throw 4k at a PD130 when you could throw 4k at a 1.8T and have a much better car at the end of it.

My guess is that by and large it's because they didn't chose to have a PD130, it's just what they are stuck with and the cost to change the car and insurance would eat into the mod funds too much.

Realistically no one chooses diesel over petrol except for the few people who are so consumed by buyers remorse that they have managed to delude themselves beyond coming back. Kinda like when Fox originally had his Xantia and thought it was the best thing in the world, imagine if he had never snapped out of that and just kept digging down that hole, reinforcing it in himself.
 
I've a diesel, it's not an engine I would want in anything sporting, it just isnt, sorry. However, in my nice big 5 series where I want to waft, get past so require a bit of brief get up and go overtaking and want to go a place and come back without stopping 15 times for petrol it is perfect. Has it's place, so far in my opinion it's nowhere near a sports car no matter what Audi's Le Mans wins might suggest.

And less than a month in I took it on a track too, listen to the....er, silence.

 
I'd love to have a debate with you on anything Fox, but I just find your demeanour and attitude painfully frustrating. I think it has to do with the fact that I know you personally and the [TW]Fox on here is nothing like the Michael Rodgers IRL.

Sorry bud, if we had this conversation face to face I think we'd be more successful.

See, to a lot of people it looks like Fox just completely owned you with his mega post, especially when they meet him face to face because he is exactly the same in person as he is on here!
 
Seem to remember the diesel SEATs doing quite well in the BTCC?

Perfect example of how a diesel engine can be proper sporty (like) :)
 
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