What level of taxation is "fair"?

Xordium · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:09

OpenToSuggestions said:
The UK has a whole different view of 'poor'. In the UK what the media classes as poor is not even close to poor. In the UK poor is:
- Double glazing
- Central heating
- Sky HD
- Cigarrettes
- University grants
- Child benefit
- Social housing
- A 3 peice suite
- Holidays abroad
- Legal/fire/health cover
- Free education

You are rather naive if you think that is the case or you just swallow up any old **** the Daily Mail tells you.

Xordium · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:11

spudbynight said:
I really wanted to look at the fairness side of things isolated from practicalities.

Taxing the poor is either fair or it isn't - any knock on effects are a separate issue.

That's a rather simplistic way of looking at it. It comes down to the old treating everyone equally is fair when quite clearly it is not. Treating everyone the same is often the very cause of unfair practices.

OpenToSuggestions · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:12

Xordium said:
You are rather naive if you think that is the case or you just swallow up any old **** the Daily Mail tells you.

I don't read the Daily Mail. I have drawn this conclusion from people I know on long term benefits. There is no dillusion here.

elmarko · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:12

OpenToSuggestions said:
I would argue that the UK doesn't have poor.

My definition of poor is:
- No police cover
- No fire cover
- No legal cover
- No health cover
- No running water and/or toilets
- Nowhere to live
- No food
- No jobs
- No education

The UK has a whole different view of 'poor'. In the UK what the media classes as poor is not even close to poor. In the UK poor is:
- Double glazing
- Central heating
- Sky HD
- Cigarrettes
- University grants
- Child benefit
- Social housing
- A 3 peice suite
- Holidays abroad
- Legal/fire/health cover
- Free education

When the 'poor' moan about taxation in the UK (I am focussing on those who cba to work) they have no idea how well off they are. People at the bottom should have the same rights, health cover etc. as everyone else but they shouldn't me smoking and drinking, with a yearly fortnight in Malta and a full Sky HD package. This is where my complaints are.

Short reply.

Lol.

Long reply.

Read up on relative poverty then come back & join the debate.

elmarko · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:13

OpenToSuggestions said:
I don't read the Daily Mail. I have drawn this conclusion from people I know on long term benefits. There is no dillusion here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence says hello.

I have a feeling you are making a broad generalisation based on a sample size of a couple of family's.

OpenToSuggestions · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:14

elmarko1234 said:
Short reply.

Lol.

Long reply.

Read up on relative poverty then come back & join the debate.

You are exactly on the same point as me. 'Relative poverty' is high in the UK, but we really don't have poverty at all.

elmarko · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:18

OpenToSuggestions said:
You are exactly on the same point as me. 'Relative poverty' is high in the UK, but we really don't have poverty at all.

The use of the term poverty is fine in this context.

Nobody is using the term "Absolute poverty" - which would be wrong I agree - but nobody is saying that.

spudbynight · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:19

Nitefly said:
Because generally speaking and to obvious extents, those who earn vastly more can afford to pay an additional proportionate amount more on the extra money earned. If this wasn't the case, those who earn less would have a much lower quality of life, which is something I wouldn't want.

This is the difference between fairness and justice.

George Hincapie · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:23

spudbynight said:
In my mind the only fair way to tax people is to have a flat level of taxation that taxes everyone on all income at the same marginal rate. I don't think that is the right thing to do but it is the fairest.

This is the ONLY fair way to tax IMHO. Our current system of personal taxation is utterly retarded. Everyone should pay the same flat percentage (no more than 30%, ideally no more than 25%), those that earn more will pay more because they earn more. A tax free allowance can be implemented to help low earners.

George Hincapie · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:25

scorza said:
A fair, or progressive tax is one which taxes at a higher proportional rate from those who benefit the most from society and are most able to pay.

Why should those who are most able to pay more have to pay more? Why can't they keep the fruits of their labours?

George Hincapie · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:26

Nitefly said:
We can argue about taxation rates until the cows come home, but I might as well be first and say that a flat tax rate would be grossly unfair.

I think a flat rate should be implemented immediately. As long as the flat rate is to my benefit and ensures that my tax liability is less then I pay now. Obviously.

Nitefly · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:27

George Hincapie said:
I think a flat rate should be implemented immediately. As long as the flat rate is to my benefit and ensures that my tax liability is less then I pay now. Obviously.

Heh

wildman · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:28

George Hincapie said:
Why should those who are most able to pay more have to pay more? Why can't they keep the fruits of their labours?

becasue someone has to pay the Jeremy Kyle generation to keep them in the lifestyle of Playstations, Takeaways, 40 B&H a day, 10 cans of stella and 50 inch plasma TV's that they were promised / given by the previous labour government ?

Remember we are all in this together, its just that the benefit boys are slightly less in it but get a damn sight more...... i

Haggisman · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:28

OpenToSuggestions said:
I would argue that the UK doesn't have poor.

My definition of poor is:
- No police cover
- No fire cover
- No legal cover
- No health cover
- No running water and/or toilets
- Nowhere to live
- No food
- No jobs
- No education

The UK has a whole different view of 'poor'. In the UK what the media classes as poor is not even close to poor. In the UK poor is:
- Double glazing
- Central heating
- Sky HD
- Cigarrettes
- University grants
- Child benefit
- Social housing
- A 3 peice suite
- Holidays abroad
- Legal/fire/health cover
- Free education

When the 'poor' moan about taxation in the UK (I am focussing on those who cba to work) they have no idea how well off they are. People at the bottom should have the same rights, health cover etc. as everyone else but they shouldn't me smoking and drinking, with a yearly fortnight in Malta and a full Sky HD package. This is where my complaints are.

I doubt anyone who is actually "poor" has the majority of things on your list (except a very small minority who abuse the system).

spudbynight said:
Why do you think a flat tax rate would be unfair?

It might be fair, but with the wage gap what it is, would be completely unfeasable.

It would either leave those on lower incomes in a position where they were unable to afford to live, or result in a huge deficit in the amount of tax collected.

George Hincapie · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:30

Nitefly said:
Because generally speaking and to obvious extents, those who earn vastly more can afford to pay an additional proportionate amount more on the extra money earned.

That doesn't mean they should have to pay more. That's a ******* stupid argument in my book.

Haggisman · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:31

spudbynight said:
Why do you think a flat tax rate would be unfair?

George Hincapie said:
That doesn't mean they should have to pay more. That's a ******* stupid argument in my book.

The problem is, that if they don't then where does that money come from?

Glaucus · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:33

Fair to me is everyone pays same percentage. So at the moment it's very unfair, especially for the payee high earners who can't avoid tax. Why oh why can't we have a very simple tax system. Not just payee but everything. First ~£16k should be tax free then a flat rate after that. Rate depends on what we want as a society. Do we want little tax and buy everything ourselfs, or do we want very high tax rate but have very good free services(if it was spent properly) or something in-between. Tbh I don't realy mind which way, but at the moment it's just wasted. How much money is waste issuing and enforcing VED, or on are complicated tax rates.

HEADRAT · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:35

High taxes just cause tax avoidance, I'm pretty sure there is proof to show that a lower overall tax "Take" means that more is actually collected.

HEADRAT

George Hincapie · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:36

Haggisman said:
The problem is, that if they don't then where does that money come from?

It doesn't. Starvation is a great incentive to work.

Tefal · 10 Apr 2012 at 16:37

i'd say a set amount tax free for everyone whatever was determined a minimum living wage, say 16k a year, no one gets taxed on thier first 16k then after that a flat % rate on anything over it.

Everyone can afford to live and then everyone pays the same proportion.
cut all the tax credits etc as they'd no longer be needed helping to close loop[holes and save money.