Tourists Banned From Dutch Cannabis Cafes

[4T5]

unless you're taking shoplifting into account?

Rents drink cabinet/Shop lift some beer etc etc etc

As it's in my Original post I'd say I was.

I was disregarding the home influence, as that is completely dependant on your parents.

You cannot disregard the home influence it's a Major factor.


See now this is the trouble with Pot heads, There is actually a really good argument Pro Weed but they are just to stoned/stupid to put it over.

 

[Threepwood]

Parents should keep alcohol locked away from kids to be honest. Mine is, along with cleaning products etc.

I don't smoke in front of them as I know that can influence them taking it up when they are older (and the obvious health factors) and I dont leave my tobbaco laying around for them to see.

Same with pot. I'm not a huge toker any more (I used to be) but I like to have some tucked away for those relaxing moments.

Hmmm, what am I trying to say? I guess many parents should be more responsible with what ever substances they have in the house, be it aspirin, bleech, beer or pot... all those things should be respected for the danger they could potentially be.

 

[Judgeneo]

In my opinion, the fact that you can get high and then drive is one of the best reasons not to legalise it in this country. Most are good people who won't drive, but there is always one that is willing to push the limit

This is my only gripe with making it legal as well. I would not trust myself or anyone else behind the wheel of a car when high.
I know people who claim it makes them a better driver because of the paranoia it gives, but I doubt that counteracts the drop in reaction times.



It should be possible to develop a sort of breathalyser test for THC though, having that would alleviate my fears

 

[Freefaller]

Thanks for your indepth reply Dave

I'm going to have to just agree to disagree - I will re-iterate that I do not think weed is the pariah of society or uber evil. However, my fears are from an acceptance and tolerance of such drugs outside of a just the occasional responsible and recreational use, how it then merges into daily society bring it with it the darker sides of drugs such as the harder ones.

Also you state the long term uses of weed, and how innocuous it is, however bear in mind smoking was considered good for you as was taking snuff and other such products... not saying weed is any worse or better than others... but things which alter perception and mind shouldn't be glamorised IMO. Hence why I'm not a big drinker, and am mildly obsessed with good health. I think it's because my personality is just not suited to needing such stimuli I just can't understand the joy of it.

I'm not against people doing what they want, as long as it doesn't affect me directly or indirectly, or those that I care about, or indulges criminality. Sure, if it's legal then as long as it's done responsibly then fine... but if you do legalise it, look how poor we are as a country for our alcohol behaviours - I think we'd decline before embracing the freedoms that you are striving for.

 

[4T5]

It should be possible to develop a sort of breathalyser test for THC though, having that would alleviate my fears

No need just ask them where they were half hour ago & if they can't tell ya nick'um.
Or open a pack of biscuits & place it on the dash.

 

[Threepwood]

It should be possible to develop a sort of breathalyser test for THC though, having that would alleviate my fears

Already exists as a siliva swab.

The problem is THC stays in the system for as long as 45 days and, afaik they have not decided on a 'safe' level to compare it to.

This all leads to murky waters when it comes to the courts.


In reality, given the vast ammount of people who smoke it in the country, if driving after a joint was overly dangerous we would know it by now. It would have been reported to death.


All the studies that show it decreases the likelyhood of having an accident were done on the behalf of the states in america that have started to allow its use, as it was of big conceren, just like some of you guys on here. You have to then couple that with motor accidents going down in the states that do (due to increased cannabis use) and the reduced alcohol related motor accidents have gone down there also.

It's all very counter intuitive I know :S but hey.

 

[fozter]

but if you do legalise it, look how poor we are as a country for our alcohol behaviours - I think we'd decline before embracing the freedoms that you are striving for.

But shouldn't we be free to make or not make these decisions? This takes the important lessons that we should be learning from parents/guardians (I understand not everyone has the best rents btw, I'm just fortunate) and puts it into the governments hands. Lets be fair, I think we can all say they cast a damning glow on drugs, some of it justified. I have problems with this in sex education also, but that's another discussion.

To those who say it isn't easily accessible, u mad? When I was in high school there were people in my year group who had access to weed and some harder drugs, but I suppose this is based on area too. Certainly by college, there is always some stereotypical stoner who you could ask. Remember, if we want things, we will find a way. Curiously is a massive driver for people to get in to it, along with fitting in or peer pressure - but my friendship group growing up just never pushed stuff on people.

And I don't understand how driving stoned is effected by the legality of weed, I mean you either will or you won't. Those that potentially may are probably just as likely to drink and drive, I think it's fair to say?

 

[Freefaller]

Already exists as a siliva swab.

The problem is THC stays in the system for as long as 45 days and, afaik they have not decided on a 'safe' level to compare it to.

This all leads to murky waters when it comes to the courts.

This is my fear - it opens the door to so much ambiguity and doubt.

 

[Threepwood]

This is my fear - it opens the door to so much ambiguity and doubt.

Yes, but like I say, there is no need to be afraid as the evidence from other countries (mainly the states) shows less death on the road after increased cannabis use within the populace.


Edit: If you do want to be scared, think about all the prescribed drugs that have side effects that have never, and will never, be tested, with regards to road safety.

 

[Freefaller]

But shouldn't we be free to make or not make these decisions? This takes the important lessons that we should be learning from parents/guardians (I understand not everyone has the best rents btw, I'm just fortunate) and puts it into the governments hands. Lets be fair, I think we can all say they cast a damning glow on drugs, some of it justified. I have problems with this in sex education also, but that's another discussion.

To those who say it isn't easily accessible, u mad? When I was in high school there were people in my year group who had access to weed and some harder drugs, but I suppose this is based on area too. Certainly by college, there is always some stereotypical stoner who you could ask. Remember, if we want things, we will find a way. Curiously is a massive driver for people to get in to it, along with fitting in or peer pressure - but my friendship group growing up just never pushed stuff on people.

And I don't understand how driving stoned is effected by the legality of weed, I mean you either will or you won't. Those that potentially may are probably just as likely to drink and drive, I think it's fair to say?

You mean "affected" surely?

I'm all for free will, however, society needs rules to keep it in check and keep it working well. Some things may adversely affect society... be that, drinking, sex or drugs or a multitude of other issues that society ails from.

All I think the argument of drink driving and smoke driving (which I think they should ban regular smoking when driving but that's another debate) is that if drugs or just weed are legal then it's just another product on the road that are causing bad drivers to be worse - if it's legal that'll just go up.

 

[Marky]

Already exists as a siliva swab.

The problem is THC stays in the system for as long as 45 days and, afaik they have not decided on a 'safe' level to compare it to.

The drug test is a complete nonsense in my opinion. They need to be working on a much better test. At the moment, if you haven't smoked it in over a month, there is a still a chance you'll appear positive on a drug test. This is ridiculous because it's not testing whether or not you're on drugs at the time (I.e. during work hours), but whether or not you have done drugs in the last 4 to 5 weeks. This is ruining some peoples lives because medicinal users (or indeed the occasional recreational user) are losing jobs, or being denied jobs because of that fact. It's like being fired for having a drink in the last month

And I don't understand how driving stoned is effected by the legality of weed, I mean you either will or you won't. Those that potentially may are probably just as likely to drink and drive, I think it's fair to say?

I guess you're right - Whether it's legal or illegal to smoke it, people who drive on drugs will do it whether it's right or wrong. I think it's totally irresponsible though, and it is quite a scary thought...

if it's legal that'll just go up.

I disagree (to an extent...) - People who smoke (While it's illegal) will drive on drugs whether or not the drug is legal or not. If it was made legal tomorrow, you think pot smokers will all go "Sweet! Let's go for a drive!" - Anyone that has that mentality, is already on the road, breaking the law.

Unfortunately, if it was legalised, the number of users would go up - Maybe not hugely - but enough that there will probably be a slight increase of drug drivers.

 

[Freefaller]

Yes, but like I say, there is no need to be afraid as the evidence from other countries (mainly the states) shows less death on the road after increased cannabis use within the populace.


Edit: If you do want to be scared, think about all the prescribed drugs that have side effects that have never, and will never, be tested.

I'm sure there are as many bits of evidence countering it too. I think at the moment it's too much of a stalemate to convince me either way.

What does scare me is people's lack of responsibility for their actions and behaviours - this is endemic to our society at the moment. Blame culture - passing the buck... oh it wasn't my fault I was high or on anti depressants and drank a litre of beer - no one told me.... :/

 

[Davepen]

As it's in my Original post I'd say I was.

You cannot disregard the home influence it's a Major factor.


See now this is the trouble with Pot heads, There is actually a really good argument Pro Weed but they are just to stoned/stupid to put it over.

The home influence is a major factor in whether or not you take up drinking or cannabis, of course, but I was simply talking about it's availability illegally and how acquiring it would be more difficult were it made legal and controlled.

Frankly calling me stupid is down right offensive.

 

[Freefaller]

The drug test is a complete nonsense in my opinion. They need to be working on a much better test. At the moment, if you haven't smoked it in over a month, there is a still a chance you'll appear positive on a drug test. This is ridiculous because it's not testing whether or not you're on drugs at the time (I.e. during work hours), but whether or not you have done drugs in the last 4 to 5 weeks. This is ruining some peoples lives because medicinal users (or indeed the occasional recreational user) are losing jobs, or being denied jobs because of that fact. It's like being fired for having a drink in the last month



I guess you're right - Whether it's legal or illegal to smoke it, people who drive on drugs will do it whether it's right or wrong. I think it's totally irresponsible though, and it is quite a scary thought...



I disagree (to an extent...) - People who smoke (While it's illegal) will drive on drugs whether or not the drug is legal or not. If it was made legal tomorrow, you think pot smokers will all go "Sweet! Let's go for a drive!" - Anyone that has that mentality, is already on the road, breaking the law.

Unfortunately, if it was legalised, the number of users would go up - Maybe not hugely - but enough that there will probably be a slight increase of drug drivers.

People will take the risk to drink and drive now... people will take the risk to smoke and drive and the chances are if it's legal to smoke that they could just spark up whilst in the car or forget about it before getting into the car.

If there's a larger number of people drinking on one night, the average number of DUI goes up. Similarly large figures of people smoking, and drinking either collectively or separately, purely down to numbers will necessarily increase the chances of there being illegal behaviours on the road. I think doing anything whilst driving is abhorrent. Smoking, drinking, doing make up, texting, using your phone etc..... So yeah, we can live in a free society, but we need to have some control to stop morons doing stupid things.

 

[Threepwood]

What does scare me is people's lack of responsibility for their actions and behaviours - this is endemic to our society at the moment. Blame culture - passing the buck... oh it wasn't my fault I was high or on anti depressants and drank a litre of beer - no one told me.... :/

I can only agree.

But, I have the sneeky feeling that a lot of it has to do with people being criminalised in the first place, sometimes it is hard to respect the law when the law does not respect you. And for the folk who cant get to grips with respecting the law, even tho they are deemed as a criminal, it gives them that slippery slope to just think 'awww screw them I'll do what I like'.

And then they have kids, and they pass on the wrong attitude entirely.



We can go even further down in history too. A lot of men died in the world wars, so a lot of good 'male' upbringing and advice was lost, I think we have still to recover from that too tbh.

 

[fozter]

You mean "affected" surely?

Apologies, I tried my best

and it is quite a scary thought..

I agree there are basic rules, but I think medical administration and medical research would out weigh it. We can make rules til the cows come home, but sometimes bad **** just happens and we have to get on with it. You can't protect everyone against everything, because then we spread ourselves too thin. Not really looking like we're about to quash the underground, is it?

 

[Freefaller]

I can only agree.

But, I have the sneeky feeling that a lot of it has to do with people being criminalised in the first place, sometimes it is hard to respect the law when the law does not respect you. And for the folk who cant get to grips with respecting the law, even tho they are deemed as a criminal, it gives them that slippery slope to just think 'awww screw them I'll do what I like'.

And then they have kids, and they pass on the wrong attitude entirely.

It really is 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other this debate.

 

[Threepwood]

Yeah, one for another time maybe

But it's been a good thread this one and it will be interesting to see what happens in holland in the future.

As it stands the mayor of amsterdam and other cities there are comming together to fight this. Along with many others.

 

[Davepen]

Thanks for your indepth reply Dave

Thanks for reading it!

I honestly think that if cannabis was legalised, use would not increase much more than it is currently.

I'd struggle to find any additional cost to public services either?
The possibilities for tax revenue would also be immense.

 

[Marky]

The possibilities for tax revenue would also be immense.

This can't be ignored - Legalising it (And taxing it correctly) could literally remove our countries debt within a few years

People will take the risk to drink and drive now... people will take the risk to smoke and drive and the chances are if it's legal to smoke that they could just spark up whilst in the car or forget about it before getting into the car.

If there's a larger number of people drinking on one night, the average number of DUI goes up. Similarly large figures of people smoking, and drinking either collectively or separately, purely down to numbers will necessarily increase the chances of there being illegal behaviours on the road. I think doing anything whilst driving is abhorrent. Smoking, drinking, doing make up, texting, using your phone etc..... So yeah, we can live in a free society, but we need to have some control to stop morons doing stupid things.

Can't deny that - Drink driving is a dreadful thing, and Drug driving can only be worse This is why I think it's important they step up research into better testing abilities.