grandmother, 94, beaten up in her bed as she slept

The Halk said:
Not many corpses get a long jail sentence.

But no, it wouldn't be right. Have fun in the pub!
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I think he's inferring that you would give them enough of a beating to teach them a lesson, which would be looked upon more favourably by a jury than murder. Murdering someone as retribution would be plain retarded, in all honesty - no one should expect to get away with that, no matter what the circumstances, although it's possible that "mitigating circumstances" may help you.
 
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bhavv said:
It is the same thing to a lot of people because the first thing we imagine is 'What if that happened to my Grandma'.

I.E. Human empathy, something which you really lack.
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I agree, but England should not hang people in the streets like in the gory history. They should take a more liberal approach, like puting them it a life sentance, a real life sentance, and if they move out of hand even 1 bit they smash him, (like on the begining of mafia 2)
 
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/res/cor/sum/cprs199911-eng.aspx
Tl;dr
For most offenders, prisons do not reduce recidivism. To argue for expanding the use of imprisonment in order to deter criminal behaviour is without empirical support. The use of imprisonment may be reserved for purposes of retribution and the selective incapacitation of society's highest risk offenders.
The cost implications of imprisonment need to be weighed against more cost efficient ways of decreasing offender recidivism and the responsible use of public funds. For example, even small increases in the use of incarceration can drain resources from other important public areas such as health and education.
Evidence from other sources suggests more effective alternatives to reducing recidivism than imprisonment. Offender treatment programs have been more effective in reducing criminal behaviour than increasing the punishment for criminal acts.
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RomanNose said:
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/res/cor/sum/cprs199911-eng.aspx
Tl;dr
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Yet murderers still get a prison sentence for life, and the criminal of this case deserves no less.

'Offender treatment programs' are used for far more minor crimes than something like this.

PianoBasher said:
Sorry but at the top end of the scale there are some people who simply can't be rehabilitated, and it is therefore better for society to keep them behind bars.
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And this.
 
No they are not, they are used for major crimes as well. And they do work.
Have a look at the STOP program in America and it's re-offending rates, it works very well.
You have to factor in cost as well, it will cost a bomb to keep someone in for life.
 
RomanNose said:
No they are not, they are used for major crimes as well. And they do work.
Have a look at the STOP program in America and it's re-offending rates, it works very well.
You have to factor in cost as well, it will cost a bomb to keep someone in for life.
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"Very well" doesn't sound like a 100% success rate to me. I'd rather keep them locked away. As for cost - make them do something productive whilst they are inside. There are recent newspaper stories regarding reoffenders who were obviously satisfying the conditions for good behaviour etc.

For the most extreme/serious offenders, I still think we should forge an agreement with countries like China and Thailand to outsource imprisonment. If that doesn't deter them, then they deserve what they get! :p

But yeah, I'm angry that this has happened, and can't fathom why someone would do such a thing. I don't think any amount of bleeding heart, liberal apologist spiel could ever convince me that the offender will ever deserve a second chance. If you cannot respect the rights of a fellow human, then why should you demand any yourself?
 
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Warecast said:
I agree, but England should not hang people in the streets like in the gory history. They should take a more liberal approach, like puting them it a life sentance, a real life sentance, and if they move out of hand even 1 bit they smash him, (like on the begining of mafia 2)
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Why should your sense of morals trump others who want to hang them?
 
PianoBasher said:
"Very well" doesn't sound like a 100% success rate to me. I'd rather keep them locked away. As for cost - make them do something productive whilst they are inside. There are recent newspaper stories regarding reoffenders who were obviously satisfying the conditions for good behaviour etc.

For the most extreme/serious offenders, I still think we should forge an agreement with countries like China and Thailand to outsource imprisonment. If that doesn't deter them, then they deserve what they get! :p

But yeah, I'm angry that this has happened, and can't fathom why someone would do such a thing. I don't think any amount of bleeding heart, liberal apologist spiel could ever convince me that the offender will ever deserve a second chance.
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None of your proposals would have stopped this from happening if it wasn't a planned crime.
It's not just Prison costs, you are loosing a source of income, you are damaging families of prisoners etc etc.
To reduce effects on society of crime on society, the best approach is to stop crime from happening. Prison clearly doesn't work for a lot of people, but actually we need to stop them even getting to the position of thinking about committing crime.
 
RomanNose said:
None of your proposals would have stopped this from happening if it wasn't a planned crime.
It's not just Prison costs, you are loosing a source of income, you are damaging families of prisoners etc etc.
To reduce effects on society of crime on society, the best approach is to stop crime from happening. Prison clearly doesn't work for a lot of people, but actually we need to stop them even getting to the position of thinking about committing crime.
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There are currently no thought police in existence so no, we can't stop unplanned crime, only hope to deter it. Sadly deterrents don't work on people who don't have normal thought processes so all you can do is keep them away from society when you catch them, stopping them from doing even more damage.

I'd like to know how you would propose to have ensured that this never happened. It was probably drug-fuelled, so I doubt that this would even have been possible to achieve. I know, let's make drugs illegal! Oh... wait.. :(

Boo hoo - the criminal's family won't be able to enjoy his/her company any more? I fail to empathise, in all honesty. If someone in my family had commited this heinous crime, then I'd really not want anything to do with them anymore, so I'd not feel as if my family had been "damaged" if they were given an indefinite custodial sentence.

EDIT: Had to edit a few things... silly me. :p
 
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PianoBasher said:
There are currently no thought police in existence so no, we can't stop unplanned crime, only hope to deter it. Sadly deterrents don't work on people who don't have normal thought processes so all you can do is keep them away from society when you catch them, stopping them from doing even more damage.

I'd like to know how you would propose to have ensured that this never happened. It was probably drug-fuelled, so I doubt that this would even have been possible to achieve. I know, let's make drugs illegal! Oh... wait.. :(

Boo hoo - the muderer's family won't be able to enjoy his/her company any more? I fail to empathise, in all honesty. If someone in my family had commited this heinous crime, then I'd really not want anything to do with them anymore, so I'd not feel as if my family had been "damaged" if they were given an indefinite custodial sentence.
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If it was drug fueled, I would propose mandatory treatment for those addicted. Other than that, there isn't much you can do.
It could effect children if they are not seeing their dad often, you shouldn't forget that.
Again some criminals are of an unhealthy mind with no social empathy and rightfully so they are never allowed out until they are of a fit mind. Though most criminals can be rehabilitated.
It's frankly not cost effective to keep 100 criminals in just to stop 1 from re offending for example, if we have a proper system we could really get the rates down.
 
RomanNose said:
It could effect children if they are not seeing their dad often, you shouldn't forget that.
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I'd argue that children should be kept away from a father who is constantly involved in criminal behaviour and/or drug abuse. These are not qualities that a good father would exhibit.

RomanNose said:
Again some criminals are of an unhealthy mind with no social empathy and rightfully so they are never allowed out until they are of a fit mind. Though most criminals can be rehabilitated.
It's frankly not cost effective to keep 100 criminals in just to stop 1 from re offending for example, if we have a proper system we could really get the rates down.
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Hrm.. I'll just leave this here.

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/hub/crime-justice/offenders/re-offending-and-criminal-careers

So until they figure out how to rehabilitate these poor, misunderstood souls, I'd rather they remained locked away. :)
 
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