President Obama Endorses Gay Marriage

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:45

spudbynight said:
I think you are as much as racist as I am a homophobe.

Based on....?

spudbynight said:
Can you link to where I have said anything about hating gay people please.

Firstly I said that you said you didn't hate gay people you hated who they were and here it is.....

spudbynight said:
That wasn't what I was saying at all. I was making the point that being gay was different to being gay and engaging in homosexual activities.

I can only speak for the Catholic Church really but it doesn't teach that being Gay is a sin.

It does teach that acting upon those urges and engaging in homosexual activities is sinful.

I agree with that position. I don't hate gay people. I live in my own glass house - I don't think I can really say I am better than anyone else.

So you don't hate gay people you just hate being them being gay.

This is a silly argument often made by religious people and is often summed up as the "Hating the sin loving the sinner" argument.

Basically it no more than a way for religious people to justify their homophobia whilst not trying to upset gay people. It's a cop out. You're basically saying to a gay person "I don't hate you, I just hate everything you do in the privacy of your home and what you stand for".

Scotty123 · 10 May 2012 at 14:47

I would add to that yes they should, providing the priest/church supports it. It would never happen in a catholic church for sure, even if the priest supported it personally.

I guess the focus should be on whether the individual denominations would accept and perform it of their own accord. Are there even any christian denominations that would?

I've known a few gay christians in my time and they've said they've never had a problem being gay in their church, some even catholic. They were always accepted and greatly liked for who they are. Perhaps different to gay marriage and slightly OT, but thought I'd just say

.

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:47

spudbynight said:
What he (Tatchell) said (from memory) was "gay people should be allowed to get married in any church and this would be the next step in the struggle for equality"

And how do we know from that snippet he wasn't specifically talking about the Churches that want to carry out gay marriages (I know it might shock you but they do exist).

LordSplodge · 10 May 2012 at 14:48

How difficult is it for people to accept all people should have equal rights under law?

No1newts · 10 May 2012 at 14:48

Good decision.

I have amny gay/lesbian friends and they should have the same rights and priviliges that hetrosexuals have. Obscene its took this long in the first place.

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:48

estebanrey said:
You've avoided the question (again). Do you think the sum of all the evil the Catholic Church has been responsible for (regardless of the good things) outweighs the negativity (in your eyes) of homosexuality?

You are now asking a different question. I take it English really, all joking aside, is not your first language.

I haven't avoided anything.

estebanrey said:
Your claim was there was no evidence the Catholic church has done anything as bad as sodomy which is clearly not true.

Where have I said that?

However to clarify, the Catholic Church has not "done sodomy" - individuals in the Church have. The whole matter was dealt with in the most ham fisted and incompetent manner as well.

estebanrey said:
You asked for examples of the Church doing bad things, now we've given them to you you're trying to dodge the issue.

No I didn't ask that. Any moron with knowledge of Google can come up with evidence to support the assertion that the Church has done bad things. I don't deny that and I have never denied that.

My point which I will make really clearly as you don't see to be getting it is this.

Yes the Catholic Church has done bad things but it has also done good things. It has done more good than bad. Its net contribution to the world is positive and its net contribution to the world is greater than that in the name of homosexuality.

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:49

estebanrey said:
And how do we know from that snippet he wasn't specifically talking about the Churches that want to carry out gay marriages (I know it might shock you but they do exist).

He did specifically say ANY church not just those that wanted to.

It is nice though that you accept I was actually there.

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:50

LordSplodge said:
How difficult is it for people to accept all people should have equal rights under law?

Very, apparently.

krooton · 10 May 2012 at 14:52

spudbynight said:
Yes the Catholic Church has done bad things but it has also done good things. It has done more good than bad. Its net contribution to the world is positive and its net contribution to the world is greater than that in the name of homosexuality.

So the net outcome justifies the means, does it?

So if the net positive contribution of homosexuals to the world is 0 or only minor, why shouldn't they be allowed the same as other humans?

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:52

spudbynight said:
He did specifically say ANY church not just those that wanted to.

It is nice though that you accept I was actually there.

I accept you were there, I don't accept your memory is that good you can remember word for word what his speech was. I also think you were so angry and consumed with what you were going to write to your local vicar you didn't have time to sit and type out a transcript.

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:53

krooton said:
Doing a bunch of good things doesn't absolve a bunch of bad things.

I agree with that completely. I was however only answering the question that I was asked.

krooton said:
If the Catholic Church treads on the extremes of both good and bad, which should they be allowed to dictate what happens to a group of people who are essentially 'world neutral' by comparison?

They are not dictating anything but they are entitled to an opinion.

The Catholic Church does have very solid teachings on morality. Just because members of the Catholic Church act against those teachings doesn't invalidate them.

The Church teaches that stealing is wrong. There are Catholic priests who have stolen. Does that make the teaching invalid?

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 14:54

estebanrey said:
I accept you were there, I don't accept your memory is that good you can remember word for word what his speech was. I also think you were so angry and consumed with what you were going to write to your local vicar you didn't have time to sit and type out a transcript.

I was pretty calm as I am now.

krooton · 10 May 2012 at 14:56

spudbynight said:
They are not dictating anything but they are entitled to an opinion.

The Catholic Church does have very solid teachings on morality. Just because members of the Catholic Church act against those teachings doesn't invalidate them.

The Church teaches that stealing is wrong. There are Catholic priests who have stolen. Does that make the teaching invalid?

But things like stealing and murder can be quantified without the need for religion, as they are detrimental to someone or something else.

Being in love with another man isn't detrimental to anything, and never is getting married to one.

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 14:58

Anyone who derives their morals from the Bible must be pretty screwed up. This is a book that says it's OK to beat your slave as long as he doesn't die within 24 hours of the beating.

Nice teachings

paullewis323 · 10 May 2012 at 14:59

It is 2012 isn't it?

Can't believe these things are even a discussion topic nowadays

Lew

Tyron · 10 May 2012 at 15:00

krooton said:
But things like stealing and murder can be quantified without the need for religion, as they are detrimental to someone or something else.

Being in love with another man isn't detrimental to anything, and never is getting married to one.

Why don't you answer the question and provide some examples of how homosexuals have done good things on the scale of the Catholic church?

Scotty123 · 10 May 2012 at 15:00

spudbynight said:
They are not dictating anything but they are entitled to an opinion.

I agree, they are allowed an opinion. Is it not dictating when you campaign and petition to not have equal marriage established? In some cases even getting children to sign a petition. Saying "no gays you may not marry as we do not agree with it"?

I have no problem with the church being against gay marriage. It can refuse to accept them and believe them to be 'invalid' or whatever. Let those who wish to marry (and more than likely, in the majority of cases, not want anything to do with the church anyway) marry.

I agree civil unions are basically 'marriage in all but name'. So people say it's no big deal, why bother to change it to marriage? If it's no big deal, then what's the problem of changing it?

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 15:00

estebanrey said:
Based on....?

I don't have any belief that you are a racist.

estebanrey said:
Firstly I said that you said you didn't hate gay people you hated who they were and here it is.....

So you don't hate gay people you just hate being them being gay.

If you are going to quote something I have written please take the time to read it. (Or get a 6 year old to explain it if need be)

In that post I even state I don't hate gay people. I fail to see how I could make it any clearer.

estebanrey said:
This is a silly argument often made by religious people and is often summed up as the "Hating the sin loving the sinner" argument.

Basically it no more than a way for religious people to justify their homophobia whilst not trying to upset gay people. It's a cop out. You're basically saying to a gay person "I don't hate you, I just hate everything you do in the privacy of your home and what you stand for".

We all sin - do I hate everyone?
I sin - do I hate myself?

Two of my best friends are a couple living together out of wedlock. I think they are sinning by doing this. Do I hate them?

You seem to be far more obsessed with hate than anyone else.

You also seem to have a strange view of the world. Do you actually know any gay people? If you do is what they do in the bedroom "what they stand for"? Is it what you stand for? That is a pretty strange view on the world.

estebanrey · 10 May 2012 at 15:01

Tyron said:
Why don't you answer the question and provide some examples of how homosexuals have done good things on the scale of the Catholic church?

No one's quantified the good things the Catholic Church has done yet, or should we just accept it as read?

spudbynight · 10 May 2012 at 15:03

Scotty123 said:
I agree, they are allowed an opinion. Is it not dictating when you campaign and petition to not have equal marriage established? In some cases even getting children to sign a petition. Saying "no gays you may not marry as we do not agree with it"?

Were you forced to sign the petition? There is a petition setup to campaign for the opposite outcome.

I don't think anyone is being dictated to.

And I find the outrage at "Catholic Schools teaching Catholic beliefs" to be amusing at best.