Tories whose dads are well off.

[Dave M]

Leaves about £20 a week left, for living...

Child allowance and tax credits?

For a single guy yes it's hard to live on minimum wage in some parts of the country, but not for families.

A family member gets by perfectly well with 3 kids, nice (rented) house, rover 75, 1 income (fork lift driver) and goes to wales twice a year.

I don't think a bmw, mortgage and 2 weeks in benadorm would make them happier.

 

[krooton]

Only if the business looked at the 18k minimum as an extra cost rather than a nudge to maybe look at it's overall wage distribution policy.

If the business paid the same in overall wages, but lowered the amounts at the top, they could afford to pay the people at the bottom more.

Ironically going against the "pay more for better quality staff" concept. Those higher up will look to companies that pay more.

A cleaner is a cleaner, a canteen worker is a canteen worker, if they are preforming at the expected level, there isn't anything more they can do, so paying more won't garner any benefit.

Other roles can actually add value by going beyond what is expected, such as customer service roles, so there paying a bit more can have a worthwhile improvement.

 

[elmarko]

Ok,

UK Min wage = 6.08 an hour at last check - that's £243.2 a week, £12,646 per year.

For a house the most you could borrow would be £50,584 per month - with a monthly repayment of £223.67 for 35 years (tracker/repayment).

That's £927.74 a month (After tax).

house £223.67
ctax £70.41
energy £83.33 - yeah, ok, our 4 bed detached house is currently running on around £70/month elec/water/oil so 83 is a gross estimating for someone being frugal. Perhaps £50?
phone £40 - poor people do not need, nor can they afford a £40/month phone. Don't be ridiculous. Reduce that to £15 and you will be nearer the mark.
food £151 - for one person? It is possible to live on £25 a week as a single person - £100.
Car/run/ins £250 - driving is a priveledge, not a right, earning NMW isn't really conducive with running a car in the UK.
clths/misc £30

Leaves about £20 a week left, for living... - or £438 left over for the frugal lifestyle. That doesn't include a bus pass or rail card or whatever as I have no idea how much they cost.

Fixed.

Firstly,

So you pay £840 PA to run a 4 bedroom house.

Really?, why don't I believe you... oh wait, because I work in the energy industry & know exactly what the average consumption is for a household.

The average household energy bill in the UK is £1252 a year. (http://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/guides/energy-bill-breakdown/).

phone £40 - poor people do not need, nor can they afford a £40/month phone. Don't be ridiculous. Reduce that to £15 and you will be nearer the mark.

Well, I included phone/TV licence/internet in that - just some of it got deleted on the copy - not that excessive (with all those included).

Car/run/ins £250 - driving is a priveledge, not a right, earning NMW isn't really conducive with running a car in the UK. - well, it's either 250 on a car, or 100 on public transport (pending on area) - do you think everybody lives within walking distance of a place to work?, you do know that it costs money to get to work, you do know that some jobs are not situated close to public transport do you not?.

Besides, I was arguing against the point made that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage.

What point exactly are you trying to make? - as you seem to be missing the point I was responding to.

This one in-case you forget,

that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage
that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage
that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage
that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage

Also, £438 left over from minimum wage while living alone? - you are an idiot if you think that's remotely close to reality.

 

[elmarko]

Hmm there's a lot of cliches there. Scientists are noble and have no vested interests, business leaders are greedy and self serving etc. Whilst I realise you are not tarring all those people with the same brush I'm not so sure there is much evidence to suggest those character traits are more common in those people.

They are generalisations because they are more likely to be true (on average) obviously not in all cases.

If scientists were nearly wholly noble, then science wouldn't require the group acceptance and peer review system it uses to judge claims made by scientists, we'd just accept a single scientists word for it. It's not that scientists are inherently noble people, it's more that science has very good way of sorting the truthful scientific claims from the junk ones.

I agree, that distinction should have been pointed out - when I refer to scientists I encompass the scientific method (which as you say, routes out frauds & get's to the truth of the matter).

A business leader may claim that by employing 1,000 people they are doing more for society than they take from it.

Again, as long as the business is actually doing something I don't mind so much (innovation, technological improvements).

I'm not really sure what kind of econominc system you are advocating though as you say you don't want communism but it seems you think/want capitalism will die off eventually too.

I'm advocating a technocratic system without the concepts of money or ownership, so communism isn't right (as that has common ownership).

Personally, I want a meritocratic capitalism. I have no problem with the likes of Bill Gates being as rich as he is because he was a huge part of a revolution that ses the computer being something we all use daily. But what I don't like are the people who makes millions of pounds through banking type services that provide no tangible benefit to society. I don't think it's fair that someone can earn the same amount as a nurse can in year by simply moving a lump of cash from one bank account to another with a slightly different interest rate.

I agree with all points here, while I dislike many aspects of capitalism, I appreciate that certain aspects are preferable to others (productive ones VS the leeches).

A cleaner is a cleaner, a canteen worker is a canteen worker, if they are preforming at the expected level, there isn't anything more they can do, so paying more won't garner any benefit.

They can always perform better, think of new money saving ideas, innovation for changes, higher standard of work, more care taken over the food.

Other roles can actually add value by going beyond what is expected, such as customer service roles, so there paying a bit more can have a worthwhile improvement.

I'd be pressed to find a role which wound't be better if done by somebody who actually cared about the quality of the end product.

Be that customer service, a bloke working in a burger stand or a cleaner.

 

[aln]

Only if the business looked at the 18k minimum as an extra cost rather than a nudge to maybe look at it's overall wage distribution policy.

If the business paid the same in overall wages, but lowered the amounts at the top, they could afford to pay the people at the bottom more.

If you waste your free education, have no drive, no ambition, and make no attempt to actually land yourself a career, then you simply don't deserve the renumeration of those who do. If you actually make an effort in this country, the chances are you won't be earning minimum wage.

Personally I fully support minimum wage for minimum effort, and I'd much rather see cheap education than a high minimum wage.

 

[estebanrey]

Ironically going against the "pay more for better quality staff" concept. Those higher up will look to companies that pay more.

A cleaner is a cleaner, a canteen worker is a canteen worker, if they are preforming at the expected level, there isn't anything more they can do, so paying more won't garner any benefit.

Other roles can actually add value by going beyond what is expected, such as customer service roles, so there paying a bit more can have a worthwhile improvement.

I was refering to a glabal change in thinking/policy rather than one business doing it. The people higher up can only command what people are prepared to pay them, if the highest an investment banker could possible earn was £1m a year (as opposed to tens of millions now) you'd still have the same people with the same skills doing it.

 

[krooton]

Be that customer service, a bloke working in a burger stand or a cleaner.

So where exactly are all these people that are passionate about cleaning?

Cleaners are something that pretty much every business needs, I don't see how paying them more will suddenly make them process improvement analysts.

 

[krooton]

I was refering to a glabal change in thinking/policy rather than one business doing it. The people higher up can only command what people are prepared to pay them, if the highest an investment banker could possible earn was £1m a year (as opposed to tens of millions now) you'd still have the same people with the same skills doing it.

Fair enough, but that is something that would be nigh on impossible to achieve within a single country, let alone across the entire world given the vast differences between industries in different parts of the world.

 

[Castiel]

Someone earning minimum wage has a hope in bells chance of owning a House, a Car and go on holiday.......

Minimum wage on a 40hr week take home pay is £912 a month.

Mortgage: average mortgage payments on a £60k 25yr 6% mortgage is £387

Council tax average for a band C property -single person rebate: £80

Average motoring costs for a small cheap car doing average mileage: £100

Average utilities bill gas/electric/metered water single person being energy conscious: £75

Average food/clothing/ancillary bill: £150

House costs not including above, such as decorating, maintenance etc: £25

Phone/Internet: £25

Average holiday cost inc spending money: £100

Total: £942.

Total remaining income: -30.


And that is being conservative throughout and not including any other socialising outside of an annual holiday.

 

[estebanrey]

Fair enough, but that is something that would be nigh on impossible to achieve within a single country, let alone across the entire world given the vast differences between industries in different parts of the world.

Well quite, I wasn't putting it forward as something to do tomorrow.

Personally, I'd like to see a tax system in the UK that encourages business to have a fair pay scheme within each company. So at it's simplest, it would look at your company's average wage and your indivdual tax rate would be compared to the avwerage and decided on it. So a business that pays it's directors 1000 times what they pay the person at the bottom would see the directors paying a maximum of 60% whilst their low paid workers would pay very little tax at all; but in another company where the directors earn say 10 times the person at the bottom they could end up paying the same rate.

Obviously I've just tried to explain it quickly so there's porbably obvious flaws you can see with that but I do think something needs to be done about the sheer dispairty in wages we have now.

 

[Hatter The Mad]

Someone earning minimum wage has a hope in bells chance of owning a House, a Car and go on holiday.......

Minimum wage on a 40hr week take home pay is £912 a month.

Mortgage: average mortgage payments on a £60k 25yr 6% mortgage is £387

Council tax average for a band C property -single person rebate: £80

Average motoring costs for a small cheap car doing average mileage: £100

Average utilities bill gas/electric/metered water single person being energy conscious: £75

Average food/clothing/ancillary bill: £150

House costs not including above, such as decorating, maintenance etc: £25

Phone/Internet: £25

Average holiday cost inc spending money: £100

Total: £942.

Total remaining income: -30.


And that is being conservative throughout and not including any other socialising outside of an annual holiday.

I'd question £1200 for one person to go on holiday. Also, what about tax credits, housing benefits, and wouldn't this person be renting rather than paying for a mortgage he wouldn't be able to get (as an extrapolation of his income)?

 

[fez]

Elmarko, I don't think you quite understand what raising the minimum wage so much would do. As mentioned, people at the top would have to take a large pay cut which they won't want to do. All the people currently on £18,000 will want nearer £30,000 otherwise there would be no wage structure to anything. Goods and costs would go up so everything would cost more. All of the people on benefits would need to be given more money to cover the increased cost of living.

Why would someone go into an IT support role if they could sit on a checkout for the same money? The system works within capitalist restraints and for the most part must be left alone. Idealistically we would be better off with a different system but as with the economy, you can't just start again when you think there is a better way to do things.

Personally I think that we all need a reality check as to what we deserve or are entitled to. If you are on minimum wage then you probably can't afford a house and a car. I earn more than the average wage but to have a good lifestyle I have to share a house and I don't run a car.

Everything is pretty much a choice and you decide what your preferences are. For every person that whinges about barely getting by on £25,000 a year, there will be 10 people in the same situation that are coping perfectly, they simply realise that you can't have everything you want.

 

[Dave M]

that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage
that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage
that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage
that you CAN drive, holiday & get a house on minimum wage

A home, not 'get a house'. You may see home ownership as crucial but it isn't important to your health and wellbeing. It is doubtless possible in parts of the country (such as stoke where property is cheap) but you'd want a sound financial footing in-case of maintenance costs (not a problem with renting).

Also I did not state it should be possible for a single person, why do you think a single person should be able to buy a house on minimum wage?

A single person is most likely going to be sharing (minimum wage or not), again I don't see what is new about this or why it should change.

 

[Castiel]

I'd question £1200 for one person to go on holiday. Also, what about tax credits, housing benefits, and wouldn't this person be renting rather than paying for a mortgage he wouldn't be able to get (as an extrapolation of his income)?

Single person wouldn't be entitled to those tax credits, you do not get housing benefit on your own property etc.....and the Claim was that someone on minimum wage can own a house, a car and go on holiday......

That is highly questionable.

As for rent......currently rentals on relative property is higher than the average mortgage repayment, so you can reduce the remaining income accordingly..... 2 bed flat in Wiltshire: £650 p/m...

Also the average holiday costs are based on a single person going on holiday abroad and includes all their expenses, including passport, spending money, transport to and from the airport/port, taxes, clothing, ans so on....even if you reduced that by 50% for someone taking a cut-price holiday it still leaves someone on minimum wage with barely any disposable income, especially given the conservative nature of the other figures.

No matter how you juggle the figures about, it would be very difficult for a single person to own(or rent) a home, own and run a car, and go on a decent annual holiday......but then the minimum wage is not the same as a living wage (something I've always thought strange)

 

[Monkeymatt]

My thoughts, increase lowest wages to around £18,000 - changes that £20 a week to something a little better at £76 a week (a 370% increase in disposable income about)

A little increase at the bottom would make a big difference in the quality of life of many.

No. I hate people who complain about the quality of life in this country, go to a 3rd world country and tell the people there about how bad life is here in this country

Raising the minimum wage sounds like a brilliant idea, until you look at the economic impact of that. British companies are already finding it difficult to compete against companies based abroad(China etc.) increasing the minimum wage increases costs for these businesses, some of them may choose to move abroad which increases unemployment and those that remain here will increase the costs of their products which will reduce the standard of living of the entire population..

Ideas like that sound like they have been thought of by the Liberal Democrats, sound brilliant but in reality are little more than garbage.

 

[Dave M]

I'd question £1200 for one person to go on holiday

I can easily spend that over a fortnight.

Or I can go camping, take my own food and spend about £150 for a week, less if there's no pub.

To be honest Over several holidays I'll do both each year, because I can, if I could only do the camping one I'm sure I'd live.

 

[Castiel]

I don't think that raising the minimum wage would actually raise anyone's living standards though....you need to address the disparity between the minimum wage and the living wage and the income inequality to even have a hope of doing that.....simply raising the minimum will simply move the line, not the relative standard.

 

[Dave M]

Single person wouldn't be entitled to those tax credits, you do not get housing benefit on your own property etc.....and the Claim was that someone on minimum wage can own a house, a car and go on holiday......

That is highly questionable.

My claim was a family has all of the things I claimed (I said a home, not owning a house - why do people obsess about owning bricks in the UK). This is the truth, I see it every day, millions of people live like this.

If you want to make it about a single person, owning a house, living in the SE, going to spain twice a year - then yes, of course it's impossible. But then as you've set it up to be impossible that's no great surprise.

 

[Castiel]

My claim was a family has all of the things I claimed (I said a home, not owning a house - why do people obsess about owning bricks in the UK). This is the truth, I see it every day, millions of people live like this.

If you want to make it about a single person, owning a house, living in the SE, going to spain twice a year - then yes, of course it's impossible. But then as you've set it up to be impossible that's no great surprise.

But then they technically would not be on minimum wage.....they would have a joint family income if we assume two earners.

And whether you own a house or rent one, the costs are comparative, in fact renting is more expensive across most of the country at the moment.

In any case, a person would find it enormously hard to do all that on a minimum wage income....more so if they were also supporting a family on that minimum income, even with the help they would recieved from the benefit system (if they had children that is) and housing benefit, if they are eligible.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I don't think that raising the minimum wage would actually raise anyone's living standards though....you need to address the disparity between the minimum wage and the living wage and the income inequality to even have a hope of doing that.....simply raising the minimum will simply move the line, not the relative standard.

In addition, by increasing the minimum wage, the cost of anything increases because people still want to make their margins.