The people -vs- capitalism

There are always outliers, but the vast majority of people who work for minimum wage over a long term probably are lazy. There is nothing stopping a person, in their free time, from self training a number of professions which will result in a reasonable amount of renumeration. There may be a glass ceiling, but it should be significantly above minimum wage for just about everyone.

Yes, there are many for whom it is easier, some who'll never need to put a days effort in during their entire life time. But the idea that any healthy individuals are limited to street cleaning from anything but their own accord is complete and utter bull. It's called going above and beyond, and going to getting up and going to work is the bare minimum that most people can do.
Do you even have a basic grasp of economics?.

Not everybody can have good jobs, it doesn't work that way.

Regardless of how "lazy" somebody is, only a certain (small) percentage of people can have "good" well paid jobs - don't tell me you are one of those people who think "with the right attitude you can do anything" rubbish?.

As how would it work if EVERYBODY had the right attitude, learned new skills & self taught?, do you think jobs which required those skills would suddenly magic into existence? - or would we have a large population of over-qualified call center workers/shelf stackers?.

That's without even opening the massive can of worms regarding inequality of opportunity.
 
As a matter of interest how are you going to enforce a significant redistribution of wealth without being authoritarian? Also isn't a technocracy inherently authoritarian as it automatically removes all political choice and you end up with an effective dictatorship but by the scientific/technological classes?
Because in a true Technocary money wouldn't exist - fiscal freedom is no longer an issue (As fiscal ideas are redundant) - before you go on about "ohh what would motivate people to work" - I suggest you do some reading on human motivation beforehand (to save a long & boring conversation).
 
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Thomas.Jefferson.Quote.EFEC

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."
 
left wing economics is fiscal authoritarianism, ie tight state control of finance. I am familiar with the political compass, perhaps your aren't as familiar as you think, as really the 'left' and 'right' labels refer to fiscal authoritarianism and fiscal liberalism. freedom requires both social and fiscal freedom, and thus can never be provided by the left.
Same reply to RDM applies to you.

That's only because you have moved "fiscal freedom" into the same category as "personal freedom" - which it isn't.

The entire concept of money is just that, a concept - personal freedoms are not intrinsically linked to it (as we could have freedom without money).
 
Because in a true Technocary money wouldn't exist - fiscal freedom is no longer an issue (As fiscal ideas are redundant) - before you go on about "ohh what would motivate people to work" - I suggest you do some reading on human motivation beforehand (to save a long & boring conversation).

Ah right, I forgot I was one of the ignorant masses unable to understand such complex things...

The fact that you have done away with money doesn't stop the fact that you have to be horribly authoritarian to redistribute wealth (which in getting rid of money and going to an energy based system is what you are effectively doing). Also be removing political freedom you are again being authoritarian.
 
YES, let's dump capitalism and let everyone drop down to the same, equal, miserable standard of living instead! Why should we reward anyone that has the cheek to work hard and invest their time into a business!?
 
Ah right, I forgot I was one of the ignorant masses unable to understand such complex things...

The fact that you have done away with money doesn't stop the fact that you have to be horribly authoritarian to redistribute wealth (which in getting rid of money and going to an energy based system is what you are effectively doing). Also be removing political freedom you are again being authoritarian.
Political freedom in this sense is only the freedom to use 2nd best solutions to solve problems.

I don't really care for that kind of freedom.
 
Political freedom in this sense is only the freedom to use 2nd best solutions to solve problems.

I don't really care for that kind of freedom.

That is sort of he problem though. You are happy to get rid of freedoms you personally don't care for. Others however do care for them, therefore you are being authoritarian when you take those freedoms away. Can't you see the effective tyranny in your position? However benign a dictatorship is, it is still a dictatorship and history seems to suggest they never stay being for long.

Engineers may not be all that well suited to running the country after all. Not to mention that your ideal society requires international cooperation and an unheard of scale, how on earth do you get that without a very large stick?
 
Do you even have a basic grasp of economics?.

Prey tell, what are your qualifications on the matter?

Not everybody can have good jobs, it doesn't work that way.

Regardless of how "lazy" somebody is, only a certain (small) percentage of people can have "good" well paid jobs - don't tell me you are one of those people who think "with the right attitude you can do anything" rubbish?.

I didn't say anyone could do anything, just that everyone has the potential to do something decent. Largely, this requires accepting you're going to need to use your brain for a moment, and learn some skills, but there is no underlying reason why people with considerable amounts of free education are not capable of that. Everyone has the opportunities, some don't take them and some don't want them.

As how would it work if EVERYBODY had the right attitude, learned new skills & self taught?, do you think jobs which required those skills would suddenly magic into existence? - or would we have a large population of over-qualified call center workers/shelf stackers?.

For the record I've worked in a call centre for some time after graduating, and I wasn't paid minimum wage. The pay scale of such a job ranges from pretty poorly, to semi-decent based on how well you can actually do the job. Most people sucked at their jobs, and the vast majority of them were fairly young.

I moved on to technical support role, working with two young ladies who mostly sucked at their jobs and young man who was pretty decent. The company was always interested in good staff, and within 3 months they'd created a position for me finally land my first dev role, promoted the other guy, and wasted a good bit of time trying to train the two totally uninterested females. Of our replacements, one of them were fired for leaking the password of one of the UKs largest footballs teams FTP details over IRC, whilst the other was promoted within a year. The young ladies still sucked and were never promoted.

I soon left, and discovered a common theme. Everywhere you go, there are always people who don't particularly care too much about their job, and don't particularly try too hard, and almost everyone is desperate for good staff, and currently hiring those people whether they're advertising or not. My current company are offering 1k referral fees for mid level Perl programmers, and have a number of vacancies.

I'm not trying to argue that there are enough good jobs for everyone, just that in my admittedly limited experience, companies have a hard time filling the roles they are looking for, especially those that require a reasonable level of competency, and often these same companies hire a number of substandard employees just to make up the numbers. So yeah, I do believe if you want a better than minimum wage job, and are willing to work for it, you can get it.

The argument _does_ rely on a level of people being inherently lazy (or stupid, but I believe stupid comes from lazy), and if we ran into the problem where there were no more lazy people, then year, maybe we'd have a bit of a problem (probably, we'd have an awesome German like export culture, but thats by the by). Your counter argument relies on a theoretical world where everyone works hard, one that from my experience, just doesn't exist. However, if you accept some people are lazy, what is the basis of the argument that they should be rewarded equally to someone who isn't?

That's without even opening the massive can of worms regarding inequality of opportunity.

I already mentioned there was a glass ceiling (though I believe that only makes the path more difficult, not impossible). I'll even agree that I don't particularly think there is a proper equality in renumeration for all staff (though what a Government can do, and whether or not it's their place is a huge argument), however I don't believe the problem lies heavily with minimum wage positions, and I don't buy the idea that people working in those are often heavily qualified in other areas.

For the record, I'd be all for defining the minimum reasonable living wage, upping the tax allowance to that, making minimum wage reflect that. However the likely outcome is that skilled workers will expect wage rises, services will become more expensive, and you'd then be stuck again with a minimum wage that is too low. The solution would be far from elegant.
 
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elmarko1234 said:
I bet you [RDM] haven't campaigned to increase the pay for people on lower wages than you at the place you work at

I would just like to point out here that I have indeed just done this. I am a finance manager and had battled with the rest of management for 2 years to get our junior workers off minimum wage, and as of this month, I succeeded. And I feel quite proud about that. :) I have risen through the ranks to the position I am in but never abandoned my ideals, even when I am now in a position that I could sit back and think 'I'm all right Jack', I don't.

I also apply wage rises in general as an absolute value rather than a % value, since this just expands the gap between the top and bottom, even though I am the 2nd highest paid person in the place and that affects me.

Where do people who work for minimum wage fit into this nice simplistic view of the world? - they are willing to get up & work, neither are they lazy - but they get hardly anything as a reward.

It must be nice living in a monochrome world, but may I suggest you visit reality someday?.

Well said. We are just different from what seems the majority of other people on here, they do not see their behaviour as greedy and selfish, we do, and never the twain (of viewpoints) shall meet :)
 
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I would just like to point out here that I have indeed just done this.

and i'd like to ask why you edited my name into his post?

oh and on that you're right i haven't campaigned to do such a thing because i am the lowest paid at my work place.


wooo for sub minimum wage apprentice pay, although they are the most generous apprentice wages around here.
 
Stockhausen, who are these "people" you keep mentioning? Is it like the "99%", who are in fact 99% of **** all? Most of "the people" in this country are happy with the Status Quo, it's just a vocal minority that, as usual, make a disproportionate amount of noise...

One of the reasons we don't have many protests against the establishment/rich now is the vast majority of us are quite comfortable. We aren't struggling to find warm shelter, food and medical care. We aren't getting dragged away and "vanished" by loads of secret police. We sit at home, in our warm houses with plenty to eat, say what we want about politicians/fat cats/bankers and have no worries about our doors being broken down by men with guns and know if we get ill we can go straight to a nearby hospital and get free healthcare.

There is a 0.1% in this country that don't have all of the above, we should be campaigning for them, but even then there is still help from the government if they take it.

We're not in the medieval period or 1800s anymore. There aren't big wigs sitting in their castles/stately homes eating and dining while the majority of society are starving, cold and forced to work in the mills just to survive day to day.

Where do people who work for minimum wage fit into this nice simplistic view of the world? - they are willing to get up & work, neither are they lazy - but they get hardly anything as a reward.

It must be nice living in a monochrome world, but may I suggest you visit reality someday?.

People earning £12k+ a year? Having lived as a student on about £6k a year for 5 years of my life I can't see what the problem is TBH. A couple on £24k should be able to live a comfortable life if they don't try "keeping up with the jones'".

As I've mentioned in other threads though, you really have to have no skills/dedication to be on minimum wage after a few years in a job though. If that is the case then society needs to be looking at the root cause of your lack of skills and motivation rather than just trying to raise your salary.


And to put it in perspective... I have campaigned to increase the wages of the lowest paid people in the company I work in as they would include me...;) Although I will admit my salary isn't exactly minimum wage.
 
Stockhausen, who are these "people" you keep mentioning? Is it like the "99%", who are in fact 99% of **** all? Most of "the people" in this country are happy with the Status Quo, it's just a vocal minority that, as usual, make a disproportionate amount of noise...

One of the reasons we don't have many protests against the establishment/rich now is the vast majority of us are quite comfortable. We aren't struggling to find warm shelter, food and medical care. We aren't getting dragged away and "vanished" by loads of secret police. We sit at home, in our warm houses with plenty to eat, say what we want about politicians/fat cats/bankers and have no worries about our doors being broken down by men with guns and know if we get ill we can go straight to a nearby hospital and get free healthcare.

There is a 0.1% in this country that don't have all of the above, we should be campaigning for them, but even then there is still help from the government if they take it.

We're not in the medieval period or 1800s anymore. There aren't big wigs sitting in their castles/stately homes eating and dining while the majority of society are starving, cold and forced to work in the mills just to survive day to day.

Nice measured post.

I agree with you entirely. I don't think our democracy functions correctly and there are a number of ways to improve it - mainly to remove career politicians and castrate political party strength... but it's not time for a revolution - they're just enhancements to what we have.

Building on the foundations of what we have is the way forward - it's very much the successful British way - ripping it all down and trying to cobble it back together again is not the way.
 
I would just like to point out here that I have indeed just done this. I am a finance manager and had battled with the rest of management for 2 years to get our junior workers off minimum wage, and as of this month, I succeeded. And I feel quite proud about that. :) I have risen through the ranks to the position I am in but never abandoned my ideals, even when I am now in a position that I could sit back and think 'I'm all right Jack', I don't.

I also apply wage rises in general as an absolute value rather than a % value, since this just expands the gap between the top and bottom, even though I am the 2nd highest paid person in the place and that affects me.



Well said. We are just different from what seems the majority of other people on here, they do not see their behaviour as greedy and selfish, we do, and never the twain (of viewpoints) shall meet :)

In which case do as one of my Directors does. Give your lower paid staff bonuses out of your pay...

Whilst you may be different a lot of people that campaign heavily for better wages are in one of two camps. Either they are on **** money or they have plenty of money but would prefer the rise in pay the people below them get to not affect their pay.

There are very few that take a big hit out of their own pocket to give others better pay. I'm not saying everyone should, just that people need to remember there is almost always a certain amount of hypocrisy involved.
 
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Just because our lives may be better than ever, does not mean that some of us will just be comfortable having completely out of date politicians who drag us through faecalstorms for nothing almost all the time.

Then there's the security vs. liberty problem, how far are we going to go with this senseless attack on ourselves?

There is also education problems, parenting problems associated with it, there will be a shortage of teachers in the future, due to the worthless pay, students who dont like the style of schooling that is done (I am believe that there should different styles of school's for different mindsets, being forced to do some things, only sours the persons care in the entire system.)

All these problems can be solved by just being a little less apathetic.

The truth is obvious enough about the way this society is run, money being the power tool that it is, the more you have, the more you control, which is why some of these people are protesting, though frankly i disagree with the movement, a simply protest is rather benign and most of them are hippies by the looks of things.

In fact, there was a scientific analysis on how connected these umbrella and co. orginastions are, http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html, of course it may simply be the way globalisation has run itself, but its clearly going to collapse into itself at one point, you cant run an economy on short term methodology alone.
 
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