Pay your taxes you scum - doesn't apply to tax-dodging millionaires or corporations.

Panzerbjorn said:
As Floogie says, it's simply not as black and white as this.

In the case of Amazon (using 2010 figures):

The Luxembourg office employed 134 people, but generated turnover of €7.5bn (£6.5bn). In the same year, the UK operation employed 2,265 people and reported a turnover of just £147m. According to the SEC filings, UK sales that year were between £2.3bn and £3.2bn.

It's clever business and it's not Amazon's fault if the loopholes are there to allow them to play the system, but if you believe that then you can't use the opposite argument against the Greek individuals that find ways to play the Greek system.
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Hiding and concealing income is different to moving income.
 
Panzerbjorn said:
It's clever business and it's not Amazon's fault if the loopholes are there to allow them to play the system, but if you believe that then you can't use the opposite argument against the Greek individuals that find ways to play the Greek system.
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well you can as for the most part is seems they don't just avoid they evade just the government never pursued it.
 
Disco Boy said:
What you have shown there, is a basic lack of understanding of the tax system.

Greek people just don't pay tax, whereas corporations pay as much tax as they need to.
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I think he expresses a realistic understanding of how the tax system currently works. By publicly talking of corporate tax avoision and name-checking companies brings it to the fore and hopefully discourages people to buy their products. Therefore these companies will need to do more to maintain their brand image and sell their products.

In the absence of better government policy (and a willing government) in this area, that's all that can be done to change the situation.
 
Panzerbjorn said:
Legally yes, but morally?

That's why it's not simply black and white.

Like I said, I'm not blaming Amazon for doing what they've done, it's good business.
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Of course it's still different morally. Massively different morally.

Moving income means you still pay tax on it, maybe at a lower rate (potentially zero if you get to some place that agrees it with you) but you still declare and pay tax.

Hiding it is just fraudulent and theft.

Stealing from a shop is entirely different to shopping around to get the best deal.
 
Floogie said:
Except it's not just a case of it being legal so it's therefore ok. It's not black and white no matter how much you want it to be.

A third position is in which tax avoiding is legal but embarked on through artificial restructuring of commercial activities or employing various tax instruments against the spirit in which they were intended.

The above often known as 'tax avoision' or immoral tax avoidance. Now you'll predictably whine and moan at the use of morality here, but it no doubt is proven by the lengths that companies and individuals go to hide it.

'Tax avoison' needs to be stamped out quick: as soon as we have a government that isn't purely beholden to big business and wealthy individuals.
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Stop making rubbish up, like it or not there's only Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion, One is legal and one is illegal. There is no grey area, by all means campaign to turn Tax Avoidance schemes into Tax Evasion, that's your right. But if a company applies Tax Avoidance schemes it's non of your damn business if it immoral
 
Corporation: "We're avoiding tax! Lalala!"
Government: "Hey, you can't do that, start paying taxes.. or.. or.. else!"
Corporation: "If we have to pay tax, it'll no longer be economical for us to continue trading in your country. We'll pull out, you'll get no revenue from us at all, and you'll lose jobs, etc."
Government: "This is still wrong, we can't let it continue or we'll lose face with our people."
Corporation: "What if we give you a nice juicy bribe? Who cares about your people? By the end of your term you'll be so rich you could build your own people!"
Government: "Deal!"
 
Pixel said:
Corporation: "We're avoiding tax! Lalala!"
Government: "Hey, you can't do that, start paying taxes.. or.. or.. else!"
Corporation: "If we have to pay tax, it'll no longer be economical for us to continue trading in your country. We'll pull out, you'll get no revenue from us at all, and you'll lose jobs, etc."
Government: "This is still wrong, we can't let it continue or we'll lose face with our people."
Corporation: "What if we give you a nice juicy bribe? Who cares about your people? By the end of your term you'll be so rich you could build your own people!"
Government: "Deal!"
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Random Forum Poster: I know nothing about the subject matter I make fun of.
 
Pudney said:
Of course it's still different morally. Massively different morally.

Moving income means you still pay tax on it, maybe at a lower rate (potentially zero if you get to some place that agrees it with you) but you still declare and pay tax.

Hiding it is just fraudulent and theft.
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I understand and appreciate this, and I'm not arguing with that side of it.

If you're making £3.2bn but only paying tax on £147m of it; something is wrong with the system. It's not Amazon's fault; but it's still wrong.

It's the same as an individual in this country making millions a year though dividends or capital gains avoidance schemes in order to sidestep the top rate of tax.

It's not the individual's fault if the loop holes exist and they can take advantage of it, but it doesn't necessarily make it right.
 
robgmun said:
Stop making rubbish up, like it or not there's only Tax Avoidance and Tax Evasion, One is legal and one is illegal. There is no grey area, by all means campaign to turn Tax Avoidance schemes into Tax Evasion, that's your right. But if a company applies Tax Avoidance schemes it's non of your damn business if it immoral
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It becomes my business when individuals and less-unscrupulous companies have to pay for 'tax avoision'.

If there is no grey area in taxation, then why do countries seek to employ a GAAR? :rolleyes:
 
Panzerbjorn said:
I understand and appreciate this, and I'm not arguing with that side of it.

If you're making £3.2bn but only paying tax on £147m of it; something is wrong with the system. It's not Amazon's fault; but it's still wrong.

It's the same as an individual in this country making millions a year though dividends or capital gains avoidance schemes in order to sidestep the top rate of tax.

It's not the individual's fault if the loop holes exist and they can take advantage of it, but it doesn't necessarily make it right.
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As long as we're in agreement that there is a difference morally between the two :D
 
Pudney said:
As long as we're in agreement that there is a difference morally between the two :D
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:D

Yes we can... BUT... ;)

*Edit* To make my position clearer — as an individual you would have a clear conscience, because you're not breaking the law, but if you have any sense of social responsibility then it should irk the 'social conscience'.

That's what I was getting at, but I agree there's a difference between stealing and shopping around.
 
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Pudney said:
This just shows what you don't know about the administration of setting up such a scheme. Of course small companies or individuals could do it and not have issues. The issue is could they actually legitimately run their business from Luxembourg? Because that's what big companies actually have to do. If not then the revenue are on them like a rash.
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It's amazing how large corporations with their 'main offices' in Luxembourg manage to run them from tiny, often unmanned, offices yet are able to make huge amounts of money from there when hundreds are employed in the UK hq's earning for the company, according to the accounts, much less. All this despite the fact that nearly all the business transactions take place in the UK.
 
wozzizname said:
It's amazing how large corporations with their 'main offices' in Luxembourg manage to run them from tiny, often unmanned, offices yet are able to make huge amounts of money from there when hundreds are employed in the UK hq's earning for the company, according to the accounts, much less. All this despite the fact that nearly all the business transactions take place in the UK.
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I'm not sure there is anything that can be done about this though is there? The UK is in the EU so any other country in the EU can do as much business as they want anywhere in the EU.

Maybe if the EU wanted to act as a single market they should have the same or very close rates of tax for each country. If it's not sustainable then you simply can't be in the EU.

Seems a bit weird to have a single market policy but without a level playing field.
 
1. tax avoidance - company

2. tax evasion - individual

Both doing the same thing except with the former we are talking millions/billions of pounds. With the individual its hardly in the same league...what about the punishments then...well lucky contestant number 2 gets thrown in prison and their life flushed down the toilet. Number 1 however gets a slap on the back and maybe lunch or dinner from the Prime Minister or some other high ranking member of the government...

its amazing what you can get away with if you're a "company", a "business"...


BUT HEY WE ARE ALL IN IT TOGETHER hahaa!

****** up yo...
 
Surfer said:
1. tax avoidance - company

2. tax evasion - individual

Both doing the same thing except with the former we are talking millions/billions of pounds. With the individual its hardly in the same league...what about the punishments then...well lucky contestant number 2 gets thrown in prison and their life flushed down the toilet. Number 1 however gets a slap on the back and maybe lunch or dinner from the Prime Minister or some other high ranking member of the government...

its amazing what you can get away with if you're a "company", a "business"...


BUT HEY WE ARE ALL IN IT TOGETHER hahaa!

****** up yo...
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What a load of bull. You do realise an individual can be a company, virtually anyone can set up a company and take advantage of dividend income for instance.
 
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