Box Junction ticket

Merlin5 · 29 May 2012 at 14:56

Bloody annoying. Got a ticket through the post today about my car being in a yellow box junction. Ever since fighting a box junction case in 2009 and winning against TFL I've been very careful to look ahead and not get caught in box junctions. But my car still got caught up in one a couple of thursdays ago at a busy time around the hammersmith roundabout, just near the exit to fulham palace road. I think it was the back part of my car inside the last part of the box but cant really remember. I know I wasn't sitting completely inside the box though, and it certainly wasn't obstructing anything, not that these people would give a monkeys. My scanner isn't working so I've taken a photo of it with my camera. I can't even see the box junction in it, or can you? Unless those 2 small broken lines are it? Is it worth contesting or just pay the £65?

http://i.imgur.com/oKJhZ.jpg

Sp00n · 29 May 2012 at 15:00

Doesn't look like a box junction to me, can you argue the case based on the pathetic picture?

Merlin5 · 29 May 2012 at 15:11

Sp00n said:
Doesn't look like a box junction to me, can you argue the case based on the pathetic picture?

I don't know. I was thinking of composing a letter saying 'I do not believe I had entered and stopped in a box junction, and that the provided photograph shows absolutely no evidence of a box junction in view. Therefore I politely request you drop this penalty notice charge'.

Would they be likely to have any further photographic evidence?

djkav · 29 May 2012 at 15:14

Can you ask them for the "videotape" evidence. I'm assuming its all digital. You never know, the courts might see "videotape" as technically incorrect, because they can't provide the original.

Also, it looks nothing like a box junction that I know off.

TRNC · 29 May 2012 at 15:15

Do it, they are having a laugh on that "evidence" - afterall it only says they "believe" you did it, you tell them you didnt and see what they say.

Sp00n · 29 May 2012 at 15:19

Merlin5 said:
I don't know. I was thinking of composing a letter saying 'I do not believe I had entered and stopped in a box junction, and that the provided photograph shows absolutely no evidence of a box junction in view. Therefore I politely request you drop this penalty notice charge'.

Would they be likely to have any further photographic evidence?

At the very least I would contest it, if they come back with a photo/video showing what they are suggesting you have done then it would be a fair case and I would say pay up, but I certainly wouldn't admit fault based on that picture alone.

I would contest it stating the photo doesn't prove anything.

GravyMonster · 29 May 2012 at 15:42

All that image does is prove you were on the road, I see no road markings other than lane dividers.

Merlin5 · 29 May 2012 at 15:45

Bah! Other side of the PCN gives details of where to get more photographic evidence online. Here they are. Looks like it's a fair cop.

Still, how can these pictures prove I stopped in the box rather than just continually moving through it? Does look like I'll have to pay it though.

BaJ · 29 May 2012 at 15:56

Merlin5 said:
Still, how can these pictures prove I stopped in the box rather than just continually moving through it?

Err, because you entered the box at 09:11:59 and left it sometime after 09:12:10?

ubersonic · 29 May 2012 at 16:00

Merlin5 said:
Still, how can these pictures prove I stopped in the box rather than just continually moving through it?

Top left corner

HH:MM:SS

You were stopped on it for at least 6 seconds

The law is pretty clear on box junctions:

174
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see 'Road markings'). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.

kefkef · 29 May 2012 at 16:00

Probably best advice i can give is to post up full scanned images of the PCN and hope DavidMarq pops his head in. Also worth seeing if you can get an overhead of the box junction to make sure it complies with the relevant regulations.

Sp00n · 29 May 2012 at 16:07

Looks like a fair cop and you're going to have to pay up!

shoes · 29 May 2012 at 16:07

Feel bad for your fine dude but I'm kinda glad these are being enforced and people around here blatantly ignore them en masse causing some superb traffic jams.

Merlin5 · 29 May 2012 at 16:08

BaJ said:
Err, because you entered the box at 09:11:59 and left it sometime after 09:12:10?

That could just mean it took 11 seconds to cross the box in slow moving traffic.

kefkef said:
Probably best advice i can give is to post up full scanned images of the PCN and hope DavidMarq pops his head in. Also worth seeing if you can get an overhead of the box junction to make sure it complies with the relevant regulations.

Nah, I'll just pay it. Looks like I don't have a leg to stand on tbh.

Skillmister · 29 May 2012 at 16:09

Merlin5 said:
Still, how can these pictures prove I stopped in the box rather than just continually moving through it? Does look like I'll have to pay it though.

Well from 9:12:06 to 9:12:10 you virtually didn't move.

Trifid · 29 May 2012 at 16:11

Merlin5 said:
That could just mean it took 11 seconds to cross the box in slow moving traffic.

I believe the offence is to enter a junction before the exit is clear, not actually stopping in it.

I feel as though the fine is a little harsh though! £60 and £30 if paid early would have been more appropriate imo...

Merlin5 · 29 May 2012 at 16:15

Yeah. So really, what I should have done is waited for the black addison lee car in front to completely clear the box with space for mine to fit behind him after the box, and I should have stopped before the yellow box until he'd done that.
With cars behind me probably honking me to move on before it's clear, lol.

Merlin5 · 29 May 2012 at 16:16

Trifid said:
I feel as though the fine is a little harsh though! £60 and £30 if paid early would have been more appropriate imo...

Couldn't agree more, it's just taking the **** tbh.

-Ad- · 29 May 2012 at 16:23

Skillmister said:
Well from 9:12:06 to 9:12:10 you virtually didn't move.

Virtually not moving = pretty much not moving = moving very slowly.

Hence still moving, albeit verrrrrrrrrrry slowly

They cannot prove you were not moving without a moving video image, you could have been crawling at a snails pace, something their STILL (note STILL) images do not and cannot show even within those time stamped periods.

Contest it!

ubersonic · 29 May 2012 at 16:31

-Ad- said:
Virtually not moving = pretty much not moving = moving very slowly.

Hence still moving, albeit verrrrrrrrrrry slowly

They cannot prove you were not moving without a moving video image, you could have been crawling at a snails pace, something their STILL (note STILL) images do not and cannot show even within those time stamped periods.

Contest it!

As said above, stopping isn't the crime in itself, he shouldn't have entered the box if it wasn't clear to do so

Sucks really but I guess rules are rules