Kimber cable "how much"

[arad85]

These are defined within the LRC components, particularly L could have an effect on phase response and R could affect damping. These can both be proven to be negligible/inaudible for virtually any loudspeaker cable (again, typical configurations).

But this was in the context of amplifiers sounding different

I've learned a lot in 30+ years of playing/listening with/to hi-fi. Having a reasonably solid background in both analogue and digital electronics (did I mention I had a degree in Electronics - that sounds so 70s/80s...) that to claim absolutes on things like this you can paint yourself into a corner quite quickly.

 

[oli collett]

that to claim absolutes on things like this you can paint yourself into a corner quite quickly.

Sure do

 

[arad85]

Right, 3 statements for you:

I shall just requote myself:

I've learned a lot in 30+ years of playing/listening with/to hi-fi. Having a reasonably solid background in both analogue and digital electronics (did I mention I had a degree in Electronics - that sounds so 70s/80s...) that to claim absolutes on things like this you can paint yourself into a corner quite quickly.

To put this in context.

I have a hi-fi that has probably cost me £20k over the years (and a reasonable part of that was second hand!). Apart from having cables reworked by the manufacturers when they needed different terminations (you need the right tools), I have spent precisely £75 on speaker cable and £500 on a single purchase of PSU/interconnect cables. I have no idea if the £75 was worth the money - it came with the kit. The £500 wasn't worth the money - it made no appreciable difference but did make the resale value higher and was a Christmas present I'd been lusting after because it had been marketed well. All other interconnects are the ones supplied by the manufacturer with the boxes.

Whilst I am no cable snob - I have heard cables sound different. As cables, they may not pass your "adequately designed" criteria, but I have heard differences. I have also seen someone pick out reliably two bit perfect sources into a properly buffered reclocking DAC that should totally eliminate jitter and so all differences in sound. They could still reliably (>90%) pick out which was which. I was amazed.

I'm arguing against absolutes (even though I used some above ).

 

[EllisDJ]

Yes, got to give time for that placebo effect to kick in and help you justify your outlay

Doesn't sound like k3v is sold on it anyhow though.

Its not about that - he already said he cant hear any difference - it will be the same in 2-3 days from your mind set.

all I am saying it is give it a few days maybe a week and then test again and report back

Another point to get shunned at - make sure you have the cable the right way round - with the writing going from amp to speaker - as per the manufacturer instruction

 

[oli collett]

Whilst I am no cable snob - I have heard cables sound different. As cables, they may not pass your "adequately designed" criteria, but I have heard differences. I have also seen someone pick out reliably two bit perfect sources into a properly buffered reclocking DAC that should totally eliminate jitter and so all differences in sound. They could still reliably (>90%) pick out which was which. I was amazed.

I'm arguing against absolutes (even though I used some above ).

Yes, and you keep contradicting yourself by doing so! We're the examples you quoted done in controlled conditions, or are they more anecdotes?

 

[oli collett]

Does anyone here want to read a copy of Ben Goldacre's Bad Science? Because I have a spare copy knocking around somewhere and it really is useful and extremely relevant to this stuff

 

[arad85]

Yes, and you keep contradicting yourself by doing so! We're the examples you quoted done in controlled conditions, or are they more anecdotes?

Anecdotes but perfectly repeatable. And I'm totally aware I'm contradicting myself - it's as bad as someone using absolutes to state a "it can't be different" when they're not seeing the bigger picture

The cables I was comparing against were cheap patch cables which is what most people will be using as "standard" cables (but you didn't ask me that...). They aren't always shielded at the connectors so can let crud in. The effect of that crud will be dependant upon the equipment and environment. A well made cable will shield totally and a well made hi-fi component will also keep that shielding. Concentrating on the LRC of the wire solely isn't looking at the whole picture - you have to look at the system as a whole.

Another example where you have to look deeper to see what's going on: I've seen disinterested people (i.e. press-ganged wives) able to distinguish the original CD from a bit perfect copy of the same CD on exactly the same equipment. 100% reliably. And they can describe what I heard as an effect in the sound too. Anecdotal - yes. Controlled - no. Took me a while to work out was going on there too and required a knowledge of how the whole CD replay system worked to be able to explain it.

Edit: I should also say that the CD player was behind their heads so they couldn't possibly know which CD was being played.

 

[Mr_Sukebe]

I'd actually be quite happy to put this up against any exotic cable out there as all scientific logic dictates that it'll do, to all intents and purposes, a flawless job assuming typical lengths (<5m per channel) and powers (<100W per channel, peaks may exceed):

http://www.studiospares.com/cable-s...jhjYX3SDlEUFWaOdTpLU0xVcTayKYYOc w4t9gBa9qg==

And I would take up your offer to listen, mostly just to hear a different set up (I do enjoy hearing different speakers, etc!) but travel might be impractical really.

Cool, we have a taker then for a side by side comparison.
Can I suggest a Sat sometime in July.
My thoughts being to focus purely on a single side by side comparison of a power cable. Please bring alone whatever you fancy using and we'll switch between my existing power cable and whatever you bring. If you don't have a power cable, we can use a bog standard computer IEC power cable. I have around 1100 CDs on my hard drive, so hopefully we can find something you like.
I don't mind how we setup the comparison to be done, e.g. blind, sighted, I'll let you chose.
The objective will be to simply have a listen to see whether you believe that changing the cable makes any difference at all to the sound of the system.

I live in south London. Happy to have upto say 6 people in total in attendance, so others can come along if they so wish.
Oli has repeatedly ignored any similar invites, so I'll assume he doesn't wish to attend.
Oli> If you wish to attend, the invite is still there.

 

[k3v]

I will get shunned for this - give the chord cables 2 - 3 days of use then have a think again

When i get time, i will give it another go as i have now had the cable around a month. I dont think im the best person to judge it though because i couldnt really tell a difference between a marantz and exposure amp.

 

[EllisDJ]

When i get time, i will give it another go as i have now had the cable around a month. I dont think im the best person to judge it though because i couldnt really tell a difference between a marantz and exposure amp.

On What speakers?

 

[k3v]

My speakers are sonus faber cremona auditors. Which as i said made an immediate and vast improvement. Ive read countless threads on hifi forums about cables and they all go the same way as this one. So when i bought the cables i did it with my eyes open.

http://www.sonusfaber.com/en/collection/cremona/

older version of those

Incidentally, the guy i bought my cables off, had bought some of the more modest Kimber cables to go with his Living voice speakers and he was more than happy with them.

 

[EllisDJ]

My speakers are sonus faber cremona auditors. Which as i said made an immediate and vast improvement. Ive read countless threads on hifi forums about cables and they all go the same way as this one. So when i bought the cables i did it with my eyes open.

http://www.sonusfaber.com/en/collection/cremona/

older version of those

Incidentally, the guy i bought my cables off, had bought some of the more modest Kimber cables to go with his Living voice speakers and he was more than happy with them.

I know the speakers not personally - I thought you would be able to tell the difference between 2 amps on them - they are high end
I run Chord epic, but not the twin, I heard the twin biwired off an arcam avr 600 into B&W CM8 and didnt really like that sound - I dont think it was setup very well.
Chord recommend one single run of the best cable you can afford and then use chord links or some of the same wire to link the binding posts.

Have you tried that?

 

[Eliot]

Basically my mate went to what hifi show and was taken in a room for maybe this company or if not a similar one.
He said they had a range of cable, all types etc.
The guy had a 80k power lead! my mate said even the 700 quid one made no difference

 

[k3v]

The speakers arent biwireable, only one set of terminals, so no need to link the terminals. what's the difference between epic and epic twin?

I could hear a difference with the amps, just not a huge one and i couldnt really say one was better than the other, just different. Its made me realise that i dont need to get carried away and spend anymore money on my system, i think my ears are just not sensitive enough. Having said that im more than happy with what i have, although i keep eyeing up pathos logos amplifiers.

 

[EllisDJ]

The speakers arent biwireable, only one set of terminals, so no need to link the terminals. what's the difference between epic and epic twin?

I could hear a difference with the amps, just not a huge one and i couldnt really say one was better than the other, just different. Its made me realise that i dont need to get carried away and spend anymore money on my system, i think my ears are just not sensitive enough. Having said that im more than happy with what i have, although i keep eyeing up pathos logos amplifiers.

LOL upgraditis - its very contagious and once you have it can never get shot of it
I thought you said you said you was running Chord Epic Twin
Thats a bi wire cable - twin 2 runs of it - 2 exactly the same

Chord Epic is a single run - Maybe I read it wrong, sorry?

Epic is basically Odyssey (exactly the same cable) with a further 3 layers of screening - so 5 in total - I ahve terminated the cable its crazy. There is an additional foil layer, then a metal mesh hard to describe then a further layer of plastic - the dark brown outer layer

Added after ** I didnt read it wrong - Normal Epic is known as Epic Twin and its Super Twin thats the bi wire cable - Sorry **

 

[Dr.EM]

But this was in the context of amplifiers sounding different

Ah ok, yes, amplifiers could exhibit phase shifts and all manner of other 'faults'. That said, those modern blameless inspired designs minimise many such effects and most often have flat frequency and phase responses from <10Hz - >100kHz, along with the PPM levels of distortion.

Another point to get shunned at - make sure you have the cable the right way round - with the writing going from amp to speaker - as per the manufacturer instruction

Now I think you're just trolling

 

[inogen]

This is very simple.

If a cable is of a suitable material and of the correct gauge to allow the amplifier to drive the speakers correctly, the sound produced will be EXACTLY the same as another cable which is made of a suitable material and of the correct gauge. QED.

If a cable causes sound reproduction to differ from all of the other suitable cables then that cable is unsuitable. QED.

Anyone that thinks differently from this is very much mistaken. A good cable, ie one that is made of suitable material and gauge is has by it's very essence of being a "good" cable, the same qualities that make all of the other good cables "good". That being that it allows an amplifier to drive speakers correctly and predictably.

If you can tell the difference between cables, you are hearing the result of signal degradation that is not apparent in "good" cables. End of.

 

[EllisDJ]

This is very simple.

If a cable is of a suitable material and of the correct gauge to allow the amplifier to drive the speakers correctly, the sound produced will be EXACTLY the same as another cable which is made of a suitable material and of the correct gauge. QED.

If a cable causes sound reproduction to differ from all of the other suitable cables then that cable is unsuitable. QED.

Anyone that thinks differently from this is very much mistaken. A good cable, ie one that is made of suitable material and gauge is has by it's very essence of being a "good" cable, the same qualities that make all of the other good cables "good". That being that it allows an amplifier to drive speakers correctly and predictably.

If you can tell the difference between cables, you are hearing the result of signal degradation that is not apparent in "good" cables. End of.

Then why do QED sell a large range of cables???? Silver Anniversary, XT, Revelation, Micro etc etc etc

 

[oli collett]

Then why do QED sell a large range of cables???? Silver Anniversary, XT, Revelation, Micro etc etc etc

Why does homeopathy exist?

Why do people believe in creationism?

Why do people buy expensive hdmi cables?

Etc

 

[k3v]

LOL upgraditis - its very contagious and once you have it can never get shot of it
I thought you said you said you was running Chord Epic Twin
Thats a bi wire cable - twin 2 runs of it - 2 exactly the same

Chord Epic is a single run - Maybe I read it wrong, sorry?

Epic is basically Odyssey (exactly the same cable) with a further 3 layers of screening - so 5 in total - I ahve terminated the cable its crazy. There is an additional foil layer, then a metal mesh hard to describe then a further layer of plastic - the dark brown outer layer

Added after ** I didnt read it wrong - Normal Epic is known as Epic Twin and its Super Twin thats the bi wire cable - Sorry **

no worries, the naming to me does suggest a biwireable cable.

that extra screening explains the thickness, thanks for that, and you're right too about upgraditis