Is mental illness an excuse for wrongdoing?

[Sefirosu]

Is mental illness an excuse for wrongdoing? Do the mentally ill really:

Not know the morality of their actions
Not know what they are doing
Are not in control of their actions

It's just that the mental illness defense comes up too often - did Breivik really not know that killing 77 people was wrong?

/Thread back.

 

[flibbage0]

The brain is an amazing and also strange thing. It can really trick you out and can be conditioned in such a way that even the dirtiest/ most brutal thoughts appear normal to that person.

 

[paradisiac]

is it an excuse? NO!
is it a reason why people do certain things? YES

there are many forms of mental illness, and some can cause people to lose all sense of right and wrong. but it is also a nice 'get out of jail' card for people that dont want to accept responsability for their actions.

 

[No1newts]

Yes it can be.

If someone cannot comprehend the morality of their actions then how can they be held to be in the wrong for them? They still need to be locked away for their own and others safety but someone cannot be held responsible for their actions if they don't understand them.

 

[Derek W]

Well that was a brief topic

 

[LOAM]

Yes it can be.

If someone cannot comprehend the morality of their actions then how can they be held to be in the wrong for them? They still need to be locked away for their own and others safety but someone cannot be held responsible for their actions if they don't understand them.

 

[No1newts]

Well that was a brief topic

Lol

Well I was actually up for this debate and the OP folds likes house of cards in a tornado!

Boooooooo!!!!!

 

[paradisiac]

Lol

Well I was actually up for this debate and the OP folds likes house of cards in a tornado!

Boooooooo!!!!!

i will debate with you

do you think mental illnesses can be faked, so a person can remove responsability from themselves for actions they have taken?
and in your opinion, is it possible to have a breif moment of madness, or is mental illness only an underlying condition that cannot come and go?

 

[No1newts]

i will debate with you

do you think mental illnesses can be faked, so a person can remove responsability from themselves for actions they have taken?
and in your opinion, is it possible to have a breif moment of madness, or is mental illness only an underlying condition that cannot come and go?

Yes I thInk a lot of defence lawyers use mental illness as a "fake" defence to lower a sentence, as in the current Brevek (SPL?) case. The level of planning in this case tends to go against someone being mentally impaired (though of course there are varying degrees of mental illness)

Temporary insanity is a recognised defence (I studied law) and whilst I cannot remember the full requirements of it someone can "snap" under pressure or in extreme circumstances and act "insane." So to answer your question I think mental illness is a permanent condition and you are not mentally I'll if you act crazy for a moment.

 

[paradisiac]

Yes I thInk a lot of defence lawyers use mental illness as a "fake" defence to lower a sentence, as in the current Brevek (SPL?) case. The level of planning in this case tends to go against someone being mentally impaired (though of course there are varying degrees of mental illness)

Temporary insanity requirements of it someone can "snap" under pressure or in extreme circumstances and is a recognised defence (I studied law) and whilst I cannot remember the full act "insane." So to answer your question I think mental illness is a permanent condition and you are not mentally I'll if you act crazy for a moment.

but, could you not argue, that infact, all the planning was due to his insanity?
if he truely did believe what he was doing was for the good of mankind (due to him being a nutjob) then wouldnt the careful planning just be a side effect of this illness, as in his head he was doing what he though just, and therefore wanted to do it right?

 

[No1newts]

Yes it could be, someone could be completely mental and plan to murder hundreds as in this case.

If he is that nuts he cannot be held morally responsible despite our disgust at his acts. He clearly does not think he is doing anything wrong, in fact he is (in his own limited field of comprehension) doing something morally correct.

It is catch 22 for him though. If he is lying or genuinely this mentally ill he is being locked up anyway, just in an asylum instead of a jail cell.

 

[paradisiac]

Yes it could be, someone could be completely mental and plan to murder hundreds as in this case.

If he is that nuts he cannot be held morally responsible despite our disgust at his acts. He clearly does not think he is doing anything wrong, in fact he is (in his own limited field of comprehension) doing something morally correct.

It is catch 22 for him though. If he is lying or genuinely this mentally ill he is being locked up anyway, just in an asylum instead of a jail cell.

this is my opinion too. people claim that because it what planned, he cant be mentally ill. but why? the illness isnt something that just happens, it would have been building up, and if he was living in his own fantasy world, then why wouldnt he still be able to plan his actions, as what he was doing, to him, was normal.

i ask you this, are we all capable of becoming mentally ill (to the exteme of causing mass murder) or is it something you are born with?

 

[Tute]

If it can be proven that someone was not in full control or comprehension of their actions then they should not be sent to prison, but at the same time if they are a danger to themselves or the public they should be in a safe institute away from things that could help them cause said damage.

To simply dismiss a case based on someone being mentally ill and release them back into the public is irresponsible and reprehensible.

 

[edscdk]

Yes it can be.

If someone cannot comprehend the morality of their actions then how can they be held to be in the wrong for them?

I am the sum of my genetics + past experiences + possible chemical contamination there for I am only accountable for things I accidently do or leave to chance (flip a coin) since anything I do on purpose I am pre-programmed to do?

 

[Pawnless Endgame]

Some people with mental health issues can lack capacity (look up Mental Capacity Act 2005), where they're unable to consent, make decisions for themselves, and accept responsibility.

Defendants in court have to have confirmation from 2 psychiatrists on whether he has MH issues or not. This determines on whether he ends up in a prison (if custodial sentence) or on a medium/high-secure psychiatric ward.

 

[No1newts]

this is my opinion too. people claim that because it what planned, he cant be mentally ill. but why? the illness isnt something that just happens, it would have been building up, and if he was living in his own fantasy world, then why wouldnt he still be able to plan his actions, as what he was doing, to him, was normal.

i ask you this, are we all capable of becoming mentally ill (to the exteme of causing mass murder) or is it something you are born with?

Personal opinion is its combination of nature and nurture. Disregarding for the moment mental illness brought on by a physical trauma I think some people are born with the possibility of having tat switch flicked in them in the right circumstances, but I think how people are brought up etc can be the difference between someone who is pre-disposed to mental illness living an otherwise healthy life.

How do they use it as a fake defence, when they need medical professionals to provide the evidence? Furthermore, insanity's not a great defence, considering they're then just shoved in a mental hospital, lols.

With the Breivik example... he didn't actually want to be found mentally ill/assessed for it, so he was hardly wheeling it out as an excuse (he didn't want it to be used as a defence). I think that's how it was, anyway.

Fake was perhaps a bad term to use. I think some use it as a way of a getting a lighter sentence, of course you will then be stigmatised as being morally ill but I think some are happy with this trade off.

This is of course just an opinion based on seeing some cases and the defences used, I have no facts to back it up.

 

[mejinks]

is it an excuse? NO!
is it a reason why people do certain things? YES

there are many forms of mental illness, and some can cause people to lose all sense of right and wrong. but it is also a nice 'get out of jail' card for people that dont want to accept responsability for their actions.

I agree.

 

[Meridian]

How do they use it as a fake defence, when they need medical professionals to provide the evidence? Furthermore, insanity's not a great defence, considering they're then just shoved in a mental hospital, lols.

With the Breivik example... he didn't actually want to be found mentally ill/assessed for it, so he was hardly wheeling it out as an excuse (he didn't want it to be used as a defence). I think that's how it was, anyway.

No, he's pleading self-defence, claiming that he was defending the country against immigrants. It's the Prosecution who want him declared insane in order to discredit him (it won't work, even if they manage this: the Far Right will still consider him a martyr).

And being found Not Guilty be Reason of Insanity is hardly an "easy option": since the person will not be released until they are though to be safe (yes, I know, but that's whole other debate). Thus, in general they spend MORE time incarcerated, not less. And a secure hospital is just the same as prison, but with even more nutters in it.

An in answer to the original question: yes, some people carry out acts which they don't believe are wrong, or are unable to understand what they are doing. Despite the best attempts of the internet and tabloid lynch mobs, the entire CJS accepts this. The only point which divides them is who is in that state. Eventually you get really stupid trials like that of Peter Sutcliffe. The man was so barking that even the Prosecution accepted it. But the judge decided that accepting an insanity plea would be seen as "letting him off" by the papers (he was probably correct), so told the Defence that he would NOT accept an insanity plea. The Defence then had to hand all their witnesses over to the Prosecution, who then used the information that they brought to undermine the Defence case. Sucliffe was found guilty of Murder. Shortly after that, and once the tabloid fuss had died down, he was (correctly) declared insane and moved to Broadmoor. Either way he was never going to get out, so the trial was just a complete waste of money (it would have cost about £25k a day at least), put on to appease the tabloids and the public.


M

 

[Vidar]

Speaking as someone who has suffered with long term depression and also have some experience with various mental health issues relating to people I have met; when you are mentally ill you do not understand the affect it has on others...

For example I could only think about myself for a long time and trying to prevent suicidal thoughts from taking over my daily thought patterns and as a result I neglected my partner and our new baby son's needs, something now that I am managing my condition I feel utterly ashamed of but at the time it was all I could do to stop myself from topping myself....


A bloke I knew suffered with schizophrenia though for a long time if he had not told you, you would never have known until one day his medication started having less of an effect on his condition and he rapidly started to redevelop odd behaviours, including masturbating with dog poop, I also believe his Mum caught him pouring paraffin oil all over himself in the bedroom and would have set himself and the house alight..... his Mum later tried to take her own life after he was sectioned

So no in genuine cases I do not believe the person has any idea what they are doing is wrong!

 

[arknor]

Is mental illness an excuse for wrongdoing? Do the mentally ill really:

Not know the morality of their actions
Not know what they are doing
Are not in control of their actions

It's just that the mental illness defense comes up too often - did Breivik really not know that killing 77 people was wrong?

/Thread back.

i could beat the **** out of you and not feel bad.
i could most likely use my autism as an excuse but ultimately i know its against the law and i dont fancy going to prison and beeing forced into social situations i would rather avoid.

im sure there are some genuine cases where people with mental health problems lose control or lash out without thinking but i suspect the majority of them are just an excuse