New King of DxO mark....

Caporegime
Joined
18 Oct 2002
Posts
32,749
Not long after the Nikon D800 set the bar with a massive score due to its very high DR and Noise performance, a new camera has taken the thrown... The D800E.

http://nikonrumors.com/2012/06/21/there-is-a-new-dxomark-king-nikon-d800e.aspx/


Irrelevant but it is interesting to see how the AA filter in the Non-e version has a slight detrimental effect on the sensor performance, costing a little noise and color depth.

PS: these scores do not include anything to do with the resolution differences between the D800 and D800E since they are based on normalized images and do not measure resolution, which is dependent on many factors like lens, aperture, focal distance, etc.. DxO mark only measures sensor characteristics, mostly based around the Signal-to-noise ratio.
 
Well, I'm finding it to be a stunning camera thus far. And, I've yet to stumble across any issues with moire ( just shot a wedding last weekend ).
 
^^^
Me neither yet, but I'v booked a few weddings towards the end of the year, so maybe I might be able to get an E by Christmas, especially if I sell a D700, but would ideally like to keep it as a backup/spare for assistant to use.
 
D800s are apparently becoming much easier to find with most of the backlog now served it is just new orders being processed, at least in the US. The D800Es will follow but might take some time.
 
Looking at the top DxO mark scores and doing some research, all the top sensors in Nikon's rage are Nikon produced (D800/E, D4, D3200). Looks like they might of ditched Sony?
 
It's hard to tell who's making the sensors, I've heard Aptina and Sony are still the two suppliers though..

And as for DxO mark, it's quite a limited set of tests and they should be put in context, just look how much Higher Pentax get scored by applying heavy NR to their RAW..

Still, I've been persuading some Nikon Upgraders to get the D800, it's my preference of FF at the moment and can't wait to borrow one for a weekend with the 70-200G and 35 f/1.4 G..
 
Looking at the top DxO mark scores and doing some research, all the top sensors in Nikon's rage are Nikon produced (D800/E, D4, D3200). Looks like they might of ditched Sony?

The D3200 has the same 24MP sensor as the a65/a77 so that's a Sony one. It's just not got to deal with the light loss from SLT in the D3200 so the noise performance is worse.

The D800 sensor is also a Sony sensor, but Nikon have (12 month, from what I remember reading) exclusivity on the sensor, but I'd imagine an a99 will come out with that sensor once that exclusivity is up.
 
Nikona and Sony have partnered for some of their sensors but things like the D3,D3s and D4 are Nikon designs. Sony have also fabricated Nikon designed sensor, and often even if Nikon buys sensor design such as the exmoor sensor Nikon has spent time and resources improving the amplifier circuits and ADCs. You see this with he D3x sensor, which is a about 1 stop better noise performance than the Sony A900, the D7000 sensor is also significantly improved over the Sony version, even the D3200 sensor is an improvement over the original Sony, although even here the Nikon sensor visually looks very different to the Sony so it is not 100% clear yet that it is a Sony sensor.
 
The D3200 has the same 24MP sensor as the a65/a77 so that's a Sony one. It's just not got to deal with the light loss from SLT in the D3200 so the noise performance is worse.

The D800 sensor is also a Sony sensor, but Nikon have (12 month, from what I remember reading) exclusivity on the sensor, but I'd imagine an a99 will come out with that sensor once that exclusivity is up.

It is not confirmed that the D3200 sensor is the same as the Sony, visually the 2 sensors are very different, but they have similar specs and performance characteristics so likely but it could be a Nikon design, Aptina made sensor. The sensor housing doesn't match any of the Sony-Nikon sensors to date.


The 24MP Sony sensor was also used in the NEx7, the Nikon version has ever so slightly better noise performance.
 
What does this benchmark even mean though to everyday photographers like myself? It almost looks like a graphics card benchmark where the result gives the absolute top level of theoretical and practical performance, yet those levels are rarely, if ever, actually reached in real world performance.
 

What a coincidence that was posted today.

As I said in my previous post, the sensor in the D3200 physically looks very different to the Sony Nex/A77 sensor. While all previous Sony Exmoor sensors in Nikon camera, even those heavily modified like the D3x/D7000 from the outside and the mounting look the same as the Sony sensors down to the smallest details.

There has been continued rumors for some time that Nikon aims to move solely to it own sensor designs, but obviously the partnership with Sony has worked very well recently. Nikon seem to be able to pressure Sony a bit more these days, e.g. getting an exclusive period with the D800 sensor, while previously Sony also got to release first. this may be an indication of the fact that Sony really needs the partnership with Nikon, their sensor fab is extremely expensive and is under utilized as it is. Without producing sensors for Nikon the whole Sony camera business will make some serious losses and be unsustainable in the long term, but I am sure Sony can convince others manufacturers to sue their sensor, Pentax does now but Pentax is too small.
 
What does this benchmark even mean though to everyday photographers like myself? It almost looks like a graphics card benchmark where the result gives the absolute top level of theoretical and practical performance, yet those levels are rarely, if ever, actually reached in real world performance.

It is not the same as a gfx card benchmark, it is a scientific measurement of the electro-optical properties of the sensor ignoring the affects of lens optics and normalizing for a common print/display size.

They basically measure the signal to noise ratio under various conditions and limits. The SNR is a key indicator to explain how much true data a sensor is collecting rather than noise. The nitty-gritty numbers are summarized as 3 numbers relating to photography, bit depth, noise performance and max Dynamic range. The Dynamic range has a clear application to your every day photography. E.g. if you are taking a landscape photos and the sky gets clipped to pure white you might use a 2 stop ND grad to bring down the exposure of the sky. If one camera has a 2 stop dynamic range advantage over another camera, then you could get away without the 2 stop ND-grad and reduce the exposure appropriately software. A few caveats exist, but that clearly shows a direct application to your photography.

the same is true of the high ISO noise. Basically they have decided on some thresholds that must be reached to say that a photograph is of sufficient quality, basically not too noisy and enough dynamic range. The ISO sensitivity of the camera is increased until these thresholds are not met, this is then the max ISO that the camera can be used at to still maintain the sufficient image quality. The ISo rating is not the actual ISO setting on the camera which are all incorrect by some amount, but the true International Standards Organization (ISO) definition of the sensor gain needed to achieve the correct exposure of a grey card that has properly calibrated lighting. E.g., you cannot compared ISO 1600 on 1 camera with ISO 1600 on another camera because the manufactures may apply different amounts of amplification that is correct. DXOmark removes these differences so one can accurately compare noise performance.


One DXomark don't do is look at the pattern of the noise and difference between chrominance and luminance noise. Typically Nikon sensor have produced higher amounts of lumiannce noise (black and white) and lower amount of colour noise due to their noise filtering, which helps preserve details but still looks nice. Canon typically reduced luminance noise more strongly and left some chrominance noise, so the Canon noise was more objectionable even if it gave lower noise values.
The differences are less strong now between nikon and Canon but there are other issues. E.g., the 5DMkII has very severe banding in the shadows, DXOmark does indeed give a lower Dynamic range score due to this banding (see the score), but the banding is much more visually obtrusive than the raw numbers would dictate because repeating structured patterns are far worse visually than true random noise. In fact true random noise is more commonly refereed to as grain, and some sensors when they produce noise often produce "film-like grain" where although the noise is higher, the noise is uniform and mostly black and white and is just less ugly than large colour blotches.
 
What does this benchmark even mean though to everyday photographers like myself? It almost looks like a graphics card benchmark where the result gives the absolute top level of theoretical and practical performance, yet those levels are rarely, if ever, actually reached in real world performance.

This is something I often see Canon shooters say, but the truth is, if you haven't taken advantage of it before, your probably not going to care much. But I'v been able to enjoy such fantastic sensor tech personally and it's hard to go without now. I will be getting at D800 or two at the earliest opportunity...
 
It is not the same as a gfx card benchmark, it is a scientific measurement of the electro-optical properties of the sensor ignoring the affects of lens optics and normalizing for a common print/display size.

They basically measure the signal to noise ratio under various conditions and limits. The SNR is a key indicator to explain how much true data a sensor is collecting rather than noise. The nitty-gritty numbers are summarized as 3 numbers relating to photography, bit depth, noise performance and max Dynamic range. The Dynamic range has a clear application to your every day photography. E.g. if you are taking a landscape photos and the sky gets clipped to pure white you might use a 2 stop ND grad to bring down the exposure of the sky. If one camera has a 2 stop dynamic range advantage over another camera, then you could get away without the 2 stop ND-grad and reduce the exposure appropriately software. A few caveats exist, but that clearly shows a direct application to your photography.

the same is true of the high ISO noise. Basically they have decided on some thresholds that must be reached to say that a photograph is of sufficient quality, basically not too noisy and enough dynamic range. The ISO sensitivity of the camera is increased until these thresholds are not met, this is then the max ISO that the camera can be used at to still maintain the sufficient image quality. The ISo rating is not the actual ISO setting on the camera which are all incorrect by some amount, but the true International Standards Organization (ISO) definition of the sensor gain needed to achieve the correct exposure of a grey card that has properly calibrated lighting. E.g., you cannot compared ISO 1600 on 1 camera with ISO 1600 on another camera because the manufactures may apply different amounts of amplification that is correct. DXOmark removes these differences so one can accurately compare noise performance.


One DXomark don't do is look at the pattern of the noise and difference between chrominance and luminance noise. Typically Nikon sensor have produced higher amounts of lumiannce noise (black and white) and lower amount of colour noise due to their noise filtering, which helps preserve details but still looks nice. Canon typically reduced luminance noise more strongly and left some chrominance noise, so the Canon noise was more objectionable even if it gave lower noise values.
The differences are less strong now between nikon and Canon but there are other issues. E.g., the 5DMkII has very severe banding in the shadows, DXOmark does indeed give a lower Dynamic range score due to this banding (see the score), but the banding is much more visually obtrusive than the raw numbers would dictate because repeating structured patterns are far worse visually than true random noise. In fact true random noise is more commonly refereed to as grain, and some sensors when they produce noise often produce "film-like grain" where although the noise is higher, the noise is uniform and mostly black and white and is just less ugly than large colour blotches.

I know most of that already but I don't understand how a final number is attributed to how good the camera actually is. According to that benchmark, a D3200 nikon entry level camera is better than a 5D mkiii in all but ISO performance which gives the cameras the same score of 81, which I seriously doubt. If that was the case no one would buy canon products lol.

In real world performance, the 5D mkiii IS the better camera, so this benchmark just appears to be numbers with no real use in real world application.

This is something I often see Canon shooters say, but the truth is, if you haven't taken advantage of it before, your probably not going to care much. But I'v been able to enjoy such fantastic sensor tech personally and it's hard to go without now. I will be getting at D800 or two at the earliest opportunity...

Not sure what you was trying to say there, but all the other replies to that I have other than this one are simply roll eyes. I'm asking about the validity of the benchmark vs real work application and performance, not some canon vs nikon ******* contest.
 
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